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Sanjeev Nanda

Should UK also Ban Smacking?

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Yeah fuck the government, how dare they interfere with my desire to harm other human beings. They should abolish all laws the meddling twats, let me assault rape and murder to my hearts content.

 

 

 

Stop being a cunt. 

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You can’t have a debate on laws and the government not be involved.

 

I get that  - not sure I want  the Government (and its yours not mine btw) start parsing this issue - as you have already aptly illustrated.

 

Legislation does not bring about change - it forces it upon us.

 

Also find it interesting that the OP - one Mr./Mrs./Ms. Nanda - has not commented once since opening this thread with his/her first post on the forum. 

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On board with most people here; I’ve done it three or four times with my lad who has just turned four. It’s reserved only for exceptional cases and is a distant fourth to talking to him, spending time in his room/on a naughty step or taking toys away.

 

He had a spell at about two where he would go crazy and bite and smack his mum. She’s never smacked him and I’ve got to say she gets the brunt of all of his worst behaviour. I guarantee part of that is his knowledge that if he pushes too far (and I’m not talking a mere series of little things here) then he could get a smacked bottom. He smacked his mum at soft play last week and i absolutely know he wouldn’t ever do that with me. In fact when I’ve seen him in a real tantrum he’s put his hand up to hit me and gone on to bottle it. He’s much closer to me than his mum too so it’s not like he’s walking round terrified either..

 

He’s incredibly well behaved generally, has never hit another child and is notably kind to everyone. It works for me for him to know that whilst he’s getting bigger and stronger there is a limit to what he can get away with.

 

If I had access to handcuffs, an extendable baton, pepper spray, and a taser, I'd deal with him far more effectively...

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To my mind it won't do to assume that all parents who would never spank their children have the parenting gig all sorted. Equally, it won't do to assume that all parents who use spanking as a form of discipline are monsters. 

 

I don't think it tells the full story if we pretend that being spanked as a child automatically means you turn into some sort of maladjusted, violent person later on as an adult, as clearly there are many people that grew up under such conditions and they have turned out very well. I know many people over here who were spanked as children (spanking seems to be the American word for smacking) and they seem to be very well adjusted, kind, gracious, educated, highly functioning members of society as adults. I appreciate this is only anecdotal, and we're only having a discussion on a forum, but in my circle I could easily name many, many adults this sort of scenario would apply to. I would imagine they would all say that even though they didn't like it at the time, it taught them respect for authority and respect for rules, and it helped to reinforce what was right and wrong, or what was acceptable and appropriate behavior, and what was not. 

 

One of the things I find interesting in this discussion is the use of language. People who believe spanking is wrong will quickly use words like "violence" and "assault" and I think that's a little unhelpful, perhaps even underhanded, as those words mean something different to me. I'm not saying for one minute that some parents who spank their children aren't angry, and aren't violent, and I'm certain that assault and abuse occurs... but I think we need different words to separate out what we are talking about. Routinely beating a child black and blue and open-handedly, sparingly, spanking a child on the bottom or back of the leg are clearly not the same thing. It therefore won't do, at least to my mind, to throw around words like "assault" and "violence" to describe both scenarios.         

 

I also feel that people who use spanking as a means of discipline for their children are misrepresented in the discussion, as those who are against spanking say that it must be in anger. For some parents, spanking is a measured and thought out consequence that they lovingly choose to administer, when they deem necessary, in order to correct errant behavior, firmly believing that if said behavior goes unchecked, it would lead to a much bigger problem for all concerned. 

 

People who are against spanking their children are also a little too quick to assume that spanking is the only form of discipline used by pro-spanking parents. In practice the parents who choose to spank might employ all of the tactics the non-spanking parent employs, with the addition of spanking as another option to use when they deem appropriate.  

 

It seems unfair to me to paint parents who use spanking as a form of discipline for their children in a certain way. I'm getting an angry chav sort of vibe. Can't reason. Can't persuade. Can't show a better way, so resorts to spanking. That sort of framing is about as fair as characterizing the other side thusly:

 

Child misbehaves. 

Parent says, "Please stop."

Child misbehaves.

Parent says, "Please stop."

Child misbehaves.

Parents says, "Oh, what's he like?!"

Child misbehaves. 

Parent says, "I'll tell your teacher."

Child misbehaves. 

Parent says, "No sweets for you."

Child misbehaves. 

Parent tries to persuade child. 

Child misbehaves.

Parent tries to reason with child.

Child doesn't understand. 

Child misbehaves. 

Parent tries to reason with child.

Child understands perfectly well, and... 

Child misbehaves. 

 

How many kids grow up with the sort of cycle I just mentioned? If I'm being unhelpful, I might characterize such parents as wet. (I don't know if that word is still used, but it's one I grew up with. I'm using it to describe a lack of backbone, such that a wet parent can't enforce a preferred outcome for their child, and they end up getting walked all over).  

 

Let's imagine this sort of cycle is repeated indefinitely throughout the child's formative years. Before you know it the child is now a hulking 17 year old, hanging out with his mates outside the off license, never having learned any respect, never having experienced any sort of low-grade but unpleasant consequence for their errant behavior, and unfortunately they are now a menace to people who come and go because this child thinks he can do what he likes, when he likes, and he doesn't know any different because his wayward behavior has never been lovingly checked along the way by a parent.

 

I suppose I'm coming full circle back to what I started with. 

 

It won't do to assume that all parents who would never spank their children have the parenting gig sorted. Equally, it won't do to assume that all parents who use spanking as a form of discipline are monsters. 

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Stop being a cunt.

 

S/he's not though, are they? You expect there to be laws protecting people from extremes of violence but not from big people using their position of power to hit very small people?

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While I haven't looked into it I suspect the aim of the Scottish government supporting this bill is about culture change. It wasn't so long ago that people drove without wearing seatbelts, and more recently smoked in public buildings. Who would go back to those days now?

 

As it stands the law in Scotland permits 'reasonable chastisement. 'The law change will remove this entitlement although I suspect in practice scenarios such as those suggested by lifetime fan would be unlikely to be prosecuted as they wouldn't be seen to 'serve the ends of justice', where advice and support could be seen as a more beneficial response

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Also find it interesting that the OP - one Mr./Mrs./Ms. Nanda - has not commented once since opening this thread with his/her first post on the forum.

Hey, Sanjeev may only have 6 posts but he has started 3 threads. They can roughly be summed up as the joy of being alive to smack arses.

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Laws do not affect poor parenting. They never have. If you need the Governments guidance as a parent you are in the wrong business.

Laws don't affect poor parenting, but they can affect whether an adult hits a child in the name of discipline. Obviously this is seen as a grey area, hence the varied opinions in this thread, so I think the government are well within their rights to make this a black and white issue instead.

 

Nobody is telling you how to raise your kids, just saying that you shouldn't smack them while you're doing it.

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It seems unfair to me to paint parents who use spanking as a form of discipline for their children in a certain way. I'm getting an angry chav sort of vibe. Can't reason. Can't persuade. Can't show a better way, so resorts to spanking. That sort of framing is about as fair as characterizing the other side thusly:

 

Child misbehaves.

Parent says, "Please stop."

Child misbehaves.

Parent says, "Please stop."

Child misbehaves.

Parents says, "Oh, what's he like?!"

Child misbehaves.

Parent says, "I'll tell your teacher."

Child misbehaves.

Parent says, "No sweets for you."

Child misbehaves.

Parent tries to persuade child.

Child misbehaves.

Parent tries to reason with child.

Child doesn't understand.

Child misbehaves.

Parent tries to reason with child.

Child understands perfectly well, and...

Child misbehaves.

 

How many kids grow up with the sort of cycle I just mentioned? If I'm being unhelpful, I might characterize such parents as wet. (I don't know if that word is still used, but it's one I grew up with. I'm using it to describe a lack of backbone, such that a wet parent can't enforce a preferred outcome for their child, and they end up getting walked all over).

 

Let's imagine this sort of cycle is repeated indefinitely throughout the child's formative years. Before you know it the child is now a hulking 17 year old, hanging out with his mates outside the off license, never having learned any respect, never having experienced any sort of low-grade but unpleasant consequence for their errant behavior, and unfortunately they are now a menace to people who come and go because this child thinks he can do what he likes, when he likes, and he doesn't know any different because his wayward behavior has never been lovingly checked along the way by a parent.

 

I suppose I'm coming full circle back to what I started with.

 

It won't do to assume that all parents who would never spank their children have the parenting gig sorted. Equally, it won't do to assume that all parents who use spanking as a form of discipline are monsters.

What about a cycle that starts like that, then progresses to:

 

Smack

Child misbehaves

Smack

Child misbehaves

Smack.

Child misbehaves

Smack

Etc

 

Where do you go from there?

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Let’s face it, smacking kids as punishment is fucked up.

The only reason people don’t understand that is because they were smacked themselves. It’s totally learned and ingrained behaviour.

 

Even the “my dad did it to me, and I still love and respect him and turned out ok” thing is kidding yourself I think. Everyone obviously still remembers being smacked some decades later to be even having that conversation.

 

Maybe that’s just my interpretation of it, but my dad smacked me, nothing major and not very often, but I hated him for it at the time. And really I think it had no positive effect on my behaviour, unless you think a short term feeling of fear and hatred is a positive.

 

We get along fine, but I still remember it. Obviously social mores change, but the more time goes on the more likely smacking kids will be seen for the sad and shameful act it is.

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What about a cycle that starts like that, then progresses to:

Smack

Child misbehaves

Smack

Child misbehaves

Smack.

Child misbehaves

Smack

Etc

Where do you go from there?

Indeed. I think a range of options need to be open to the parent, who, knowing the child, will then be free to choose what is most appropriate and what works in order to correct the errant behaviour.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, we definitely weren’t big on smacking our children, and I don’t even remember it, but I think it must have happened, at least once or twice, early in their childhood. As reasoning skills grow, and understanding increases, that needs to come into play more and more, and ultimately positive reinforcement of good stuff is much better again. Still, if some sort of punishment needs to happen to ensure a change of direction then in our current situation the worst sanction for our daughter would be iPhone privileges revoked for a time, and for our son, not being able to play games or watch YouTube on his iPad would have the same sort of impact.

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I was never smacked -- I do not smack my kids. Still pretty sure this will have absolutely no affect on true abuse as that is punishable (see what I did there) by law already. This just allows a certain faction of society ( who most certainly do not do it) feel happy with one another -so they can smack each other on the asses as reward for a job well done. As said before, if you want to change their world for the better - worry about what goes in their mouth and through their eyes.

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Let’s face it, smacking kids as punishment is fucked up.

The only reason people don’t understand that is because they were smacked themselves. It’s totally learned and ingrained behaviour.

 

Even the “my dad did it to me, and I still love and respect him and turned out ok” thing is kidding yourself I think. Everyone obviously still remembers being smacked some decades later to be even having that conversation.

 

Maybe that’s just my interpretation of it, but my dad smacked me, nothing major and not very often, but I hated him for it at the time. And really I think it had no positive effect on my behaviour, unless you think a short term feeling of fear and hatred is a positive.

 

We get along fine, but I still remember it. Obviously social mores change, but the more time goes on the more likely smacking kids will be seen for the sad and shameful act it is.

Personally I don't actually remember specific incidences of why I was smacked. I just know on the odd occasion it happened.

 

Obviously everyone who was punished such a way as a child has memories of such a thing. Each parenting style is different, sometimes not for the better

 

Although I don't think I'm kidding myself, I just haven't taken any negative feeling for it into my later years. There really has not been any physiological knock on effect.

 

I was naughty, I was punished. The world keeps moving and I still think my mum was a great parent to me as a child.

 

That's my opinion anyway, I guess everyone has their own version.

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As said before, if you want to change their world for the better - worry about what goes in their mouth and through their eyes.

Well said. There’s loads of destructive stuff routinely happening that barely registers.

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The best example I’ve seen at work of when a parent used a smack to good effect was when a four year old lad stole a lighter from the kitchen drawer and then, with his three year old sister by his side, set fire to his own duvet in his room as they were sat on it on the top bunk.

 

Thankfully mum walked in just as it got going. Do I have a problem with him being smacked right there and then, no not really. If he’s then fearful of stealing another lighter and fucking around then so be it. I don’t actually see how anything would have worked better than the shock of having an otherwise calm parent smack him on the backside an an exception. I’m not entirely sure how every four year old is going to appreciate fire safety in comparison to understanding that messing around with a lighter results in a smack.

 

It’s a pointless discussion though because no one is really doing to change their minds.

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The best example I’ve seen at work of when a parent used a smack to good effect was when a four year old lad stole a lighter from the kitchen drawer and then, with his three year old sister by his side, set fire to his own duvet in his room as they were sat on it on the top bunk.

 

Thankfully mum walked in just as it got going. Do I have a problem with him being smacked right there and then, no not really. If he’s then fearful of stealing another lighter and fucking around then so be it. I don’t actually see how anything would have worked better than the shock of having an otherwise calm parent smack him on the backside an an exception. I’m not entirely sure how every four year old is going to appreciate fire safety in comparison to understanding that messing around with a lighter results in a smack.

 

It’s a pointless discussion though because no one is really doing to change their minds.

This is what I can't get my head around (and I'm willing to accept that not having children means I have a different perspective) but why is a smack the only thing that works in that situation? What does a smack do other than reinforce the idea that you solve problems with violence?

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I was smacked as a kid and I do think it gave me certain boundaries. However I would still misbehave and I think the only thing I had in mind was "If I get caught then this is a smacking offence". I don't think it stopped me doing anything naughty and I think it spilled over into the lesser offences too. I don't smack my kids, even though the 6 year old has been a right twat on numerous occasions.

 

When I was 7 I was leaving school with my pencil case that had my marble collection in it. I was throwing it in the air and catching it because I was THAT cool. Horror of horrors, it got stuck in a tree. So, being 7, I climbed up the tree and got it back. Easy. Except -  on the way down, about 8ft up, a branch broke and I fell out. I put my hands out to break my fall and broke both bones in both my forearms! Not that we knew that at the time of course... but anyway my mum came rushing over, lifted me up by the wrist and smacked me on the arse! Never quite understood that one!

 

Louis CK's bit on it is great:

 

“And stop hitting me, you’re huge. How could you hit me?! That’s crazy. You’re a giant, and I can’t defend myself.”I really think it’s crazy that we hit our kids. It really is–here’s the crazy part about it. Kids are the only people in the world that you’re allowed to hit. Do you realize that? They’re the most vulnerable, and they’re the most destroyed by being hit. But it’s totally okay to hit them. And they’re the only ones! If you hit a dog they… will put you in jail for that… You can’t hit a person unless you can prove that they were trying to kill you. But a little tiny person with a head this big who trusts you implicitly, f(orget) ’em. Who (cares)? Just… hit–let’s all hit them! People want you to hit your kid. If your kid’s making noise in public, “Hit him, hit him! Hit him!Grrr, hit him!” We’re proud of it! “I hit my kids. You’re… right I hit my kids.” Why did you hit them? “‘Cause they were doing a thing I didn’t like at the moment. And so I hit them, and guess what? They didn’t do it after that.” Well, that wouldn’t be taking the… easy way out would it? “

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Guest Pistonbroke

There is no handbook to parenting. Basic parenting skills is a given, but each and every child is slightly different and react to situations differently, as do adults. You try to bring your kids up to respect others, and try to do so in an environment as loving and safe as possible. Sometimes they overstep the line and need chastising, I doubt a few tender slaps will have a major say in how their adult life pans out, maybe in extreme circumstances where a child has physiological problems and finds it hard to deal with punishment of any kind. Children are also influenced by many other things around them. The way their parents talk to each other or react to certain situations, the way other children react in school, how their friends behave, by the way others behave on the streets they live or visit. In today's day and age it is easy enough for them to take an interest in the news via social media etc.   

 

A child's outlook on life can be influenced by so many things, as a parent it is important to take time out to explain and discuss things with them, far too many parents think that is the job of education, teachers have enough to deal with without having to take over the parenting side because adults can't be arsed. 

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To smack or not to smack your children? New research has decided once and for all.

 

The merit of smacking children as a form of discipline has been debated for decades. Now research shows that it leads to long-term issues such as aggressive and anti-social behaviour.

 

It’s difficult to argue with this research, published in The Journal of Family Psychologyas researchers looked at more than 160,000 children over a 50-year period and found spanking (defined as an open-handed hit on the backside or extremities) was related to problematic behavioural habits later in life.

 

For example, children who were smacked were more likely to develop antisocial habits, suffer mental health problems and condone physical punishment of their own children.

 

“We found that spanking was associated with unintended detrimental outcomes,” the study’s co-author Elizabeth Gershoff from The University of Texas said in a statement.  “[smacking] was not associated with more immediate or long-term compliance, which are parents’ intended outcomes when they discipline their children.”

 

Gershoff worked with Andrew Grogan-Kaylor from the University of Michigan, who agreed that smacking is not only ineffective as a disciplinary measure but in fact detrimental to child behaviour.

 

“The upshot of the study is that spanking increases the likelihood of a wide variety of undesired outcomes for children,” Grogan-Kaylor said. “Spanking thus does the opposite of what parents usually want it to do.”

According to Gershoff, this study is different to previous research in the way it looks at smacking in isolation of other potentially abusive behaviours. However, the long-term behavioural outcomes from spanking were found to be in the same direction, and almost the same strength, as those seen in children from physically abusive households.

 

“We as a society think of spanking and physical abuse as distinct behaviors,” Gershoff said. “Yet our research shows that spanking is linked with the same negative child outcomes as abuse, just to a slightly lesser degree.”

 

“We hope that our study can help educate parents about the potential harms of spanking and prompt them to try positive and non-punitive forms of discipline.”

 

https://www.mamamia.com.au/effects-of-smacking-children/

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