Transgender stuff - what's going on?

[Rico1304]

7 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Hormone treatment. Their testosterone levels must be below a certain amount for at least 12 months. It completely fucks them up, mainly through muscle atrophy.

Mmm, although that’s not true if they’ve been through puberty. 

[John102]

The level is 10nmols. A womans 'normal' range is 0-2. Normal for a man can range from 7.

 

Its still a ridiculous policy and completely unfair on the other female athletes that compete.

 

The emperors new clothes this whole situation.

[Duff Man]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Mmm, although that’s not true if they’ve been through puberty. 

The muscle atrophy? That's not my understanding. If it's pre-puberty, the muscles don't develop as they normally would. If it's post, then they reduce in mass.

[Red_or_Dead]

22 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

That’s absolutely not true. Maybe on this thread, but not in the wider discourse. 

Hmn... I guess I’d have to look into it, as I’ve no idea of the actual impact, but I think having people who were born (and, biologically remain) male competing against females is a bad idea. Especially in combat sports. 

Ah, yes, I heard Sharon Davies got in hot water over this the other day.

 

 

[Duff Man]

27 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

That’s absolutely not true. Maybe on this thread, but not in the wider discourse. 

Hmn... I guess I’d have to look into it, as I’ve no idea of the actual impact, but I think having people who were born (and, biologically remain) male competing against females is a bad idea. Especially in combat sports. 

The perception is that they have an unfair advantage, but the reality is quite different. Some studies even show that more often than not they're actually disadvantaged. I think a lot of people just assume it's basically a man competing against a woman, but that's really not the case, and the evidence bears it out.

 

In combat sports I can only think of Fallon Fox, who was bang average, and handily beaten by the only decent fighter she came across.

[John102]

5 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

The perception is that they have an unfair advantage, but the reality is quite different. Some studies even show that more often than not they're actually disadvantaged. I think a lot of people just assume it's basically a man competing against a woman, but that's really not the case, and the evidence bears it out.

 

In combat sports I can only think of Fallon Fox, who was bang average, and handily beaten by the only decent fighter she came across.

A real Rocky story. Underdog done good.

[Duff Man]

3 minutes ago, John102 said:

A real Rocky story. Underdog done good.

Not sure what your point is.

[John102]

Just now, Duff Man said:

Not sure what your point is.

That your point that these people are disadvantaged is nonsense

[Duff Man]

1 minute ago, John102 said:

That your point that these people are disadvantaged is nonsense

So, that's your opinion, but people who've actually studied it, and are qualified to do so, disagree. I know who I'm going with.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Duff Man said:

But there's barely any chance of that happening, is there? Male to female trans athletes have been competing in top level sport for over 40 years, and are yet to take over.

 

There's a perception that women's sport is being, or going to be, dominated by these people because of an unfair athletic advantage, but from what I can tell that's not even close to the reality.

 

Even in this case, despite the fact that she won, those lifts aren't actually that extraordinary for the weight class. For example, in the last world champs it wouldn't even have got her on the podium.

Ohh, you and your facts!  Don't you see we've got a moral panic to be getting on with?

[Rico1304]

4 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

So, that's your opinion, but people who've actually studied it, and are qualified to do so, disagree. I know who I'm going with.

We need bigger studies than have been done before, think the one most quoted has 8 participants. I supposed the thing to avoid is putting women off sport. Think there’s only eventing that doesn’t segregate (May be wrong) and there’s a reason for that.  

[Duff Man]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

We need bigger studies than have been done before, think the one most quoted has 8 participants. I supposed the thing to avoid is putting women off sport. Think there’s only eventing that doesn’t segregate (May be wrong) and there’s a reason for that.  

16 years of trans athletes competing under these guidelines seems a fairly good one.

[John102]

5 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

So, that's your opinion, but people who've actually studied it, and are qualified to do so, disagree. I know who I'm going with.

Like who? I can equally point you to trans academics and people who have studied it who acknowledge they have physical advantages.

 

Like i say above. The level they have to reduce testosterone too is still 5 times higher than most women. A level still comparable with some men.

 

Trans woman are still generally taller and stronger than normal women. If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that not to be the case then fair enough.

[John102]

26 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

The perception is that they have an unfair advantage, but the reality is quite different. Some studies even show that more often than not they're actually disadvantaged. I think a lot of people just assume it's basically a man competing against a woman, but that's really not the case, and the evidence bears it out.

 

In combat sports I can only think of Fallon Fox, who was bang average, and handily beaten by the only decent fighter she came across.

You know what, maybe i am some sort of bigot that is outdated. What are these studies that show trans women are actually disadvantaged? Im up for educating myself.

[Duff Man]

10 minutes ago, John102 said:

Like who? I can equally point you to trans academics and people who have studied it who acknowledge they have physical advantages.

 

Like i say above. The level they have to reduce testosterone too is still 5 times higher than most women. A level still comparable with some men.

 

Trans woman are still generally taller and stronger than normal women. If you want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that not to be the case then fair enough.

And has a single trans athlete ever dominated the sport they compete in? A single one? They've been doing it for 40 years. Surely if there was a possibility of one completely dominating their field, it would have happened by now.

[Duff Man]

Just now, John102 said:

You know what, maybe i am some sort of bigot that is outdated. What are these studies that show trans women are actually disadvantaged? Im up for educating myself.

Don't do that, it's ridiculous.

 

There were studies done around the time the IOC guidelines were formed in 2003, and others have been done since. But again, the most useful one to look at is history. Who is the trans athlete that has dominated their sport in the last 40 years? They don't exist as far as I'm aware.

[John102]

7 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

And has a single trans athlete ever dominated the sport they compete in? A single one? It's been happening for 40 years, now. Surely if it was a possibility, it would have happened by now.

Laurel Hubbard was mentioned not even a few pages back. Won golds at Pacific games. Silver in World Champs. Injured in commonwealths.

 

Dont know if you count it as dominating but i would imagine its one comp too many to the woman who came in as runners up.

 

 

[Duff Man]

1 minute ago, John102 said:

Laurel Hubbard was mentioned not even a few pages back. Won golds at Pacific games. Silver in World Champs. Injured in common wealths.

 

Dont know if you count it as dominating but i would imagibe its one comp too many to the woman who came in as runners up.

 

 

Yeah, and as I said to Rico, if you accept that they're going to compete, you also have to accept that they'll occasionally win.

[John102]

Just now, Duff Man said:

Yeah, and as I said to Rico, if you accept that they're going to compete, you also have to accept that they'll occasionally win.

I guess my point is that they shouldn't be allowed to compete, as i maintain they have a physical advantage.

 

I also dont think XY atheltes like Semenya should be allowed to compete against XX women.

[Pureblood]

7 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Who is the trans athlete that has dominated their sport in the last 40 years? 

Sally Gunnell. 

[Duff Man]

Just now, John102 said:

I guess my point is that they shouldn't be allowed to compete, as i maintain they have a physical advantage.

 

I also dont think XY atheltes like Semenya should be allowed to compete against XX women.

Well then you have to be OK with further excluding from society an already marginalised group of people by preventing them from competing in sport.

[Rico1304]

15 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

16 years of trans athletes competing under these guidelines seems a fairly good one.

Well, it depends on the number involved doesn’t it? 

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Well then you have to be OK with further excluding from society an already marginalised group of people by preventing them from competing in sport.

I think women would claim that’s them. 

[Duff Man]

6 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I think women would claim that’s them. 

Would they? Who's excluding them?

 

On one hand you're saying there aren't enough trans athletes to ascertain whether or not whether they have an unfair advantage, and on the other that there are so many, cis women are being excluded. I'm not sure those two viewpoints can co-exist.

[John102]

3 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Well then you have to be OK with further excluding from society an already marginalised group of people by preventing them from competing in sport.

I will have a look out for these studies that show trans women are at a disadvantage.

 

I have no issue in general, however, men's sporting records are generally better than women's. Maybe in all sports. I dont think their is anything remotely controversial in that. These trans women already acknowledge they were born into the wrong bodies i.e mens. To then pretend they dont have an advantage over those born into a female body seems odd.

 

Sport is inherently a competition of physicality. if we cant be grown up enough to give trans people support but acknowledge that unfortunately due to a quirk of nature that they were born with unfair advantages over other woman, then thats a shame.