Transgender stuff - what's going on?

[Rico1304]

3 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Why are people still struggling with sex and gender being 2 different things?

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

 

Might help reading this.

Gender has no bearing on sex based rights. Agree there.  

[Babb'sBurstNad]

5 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Why are people still struggling with sex and gender being 2 different things?

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

 

Might help reading this.

The trouble is, we use the same pronouns and terminology for both. So, if you decided to constantly refer to a transman as a woman whenever in a medical setting, it could understandably cause some distress. 

 

Hence gender neutral terms becoming used, with merely reference to biological features. A person with a penis etc.

[Captain Willard]

16 minutes ago, Remmie said:

I don't necessarily agree with all the trans rights activists methods, but expecting oppressed communities to sit back and politely accept the way LGBTQ people are treated is unrealistic. Fighting the good fight requires people to take notice as has been proven countless times in the past

Just so we are all clear, do you think sending her death threats and cancelling her from mainstream media is “fighting the good fight “ ? 

[Rico1304]

14 minutes ago, Remmie said:

The second sentence most certainly suppresses the trans community 

Biological facts suppresses people how?  
 

The journey from occasional flasher to TRA is astonishing.  

[Remmie]

17 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

Just so we are all clear, do you think sending her death threats and cancelling her from mainstream media is “fighting the good fight “ ? 

No I don't agree with sending death threats and have no idea whether she has been cancelled from the mainstream media or just enjoys being out of the spotlight. To be honest, I have very little interest in JK Rowling in general. Good luck to her, she has a right to her opinion as do those that disagree with her. 

[Rico1304]

1 minute ago, Remmie said:

No I don't agree with sending death threats and have no idea whether she has been cancelled from the mainstream media or just enjoys being out of the spotlight. To be honest, I have very little interest in JK Rowling in general. Good luck to her, she has a right to her opinion as do those that disagree with her. 

She a survivor of sex abuse and DV, she believes men can’t become women.  For that, she’s received death threats and unsuccessful attempts to silence her.  Whether you are interested is immaterial. Hundreds of other men and women have faced the same.  A lawyer called Adrian Yalland has received over 20 complaints to his chambers and the regulator for the same views. All dismissed but the process is the punishment.  

[Lario]

25 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

 A person with a penis etc.

You mean a boy/man?

[CapeRed]

11 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

As a kid I was taught that respect is earned not demanded. Cheeky fucker could at least shave his chest.

[CapeRed]

32 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

The trouble is, we use the same pronouns and terminology for both. So, if you decided to constantly refer to a transman as a woman whenever in a medical setting, it could understandably cause some distress. 

 

Hence gender neutral terms becoming used, with merely reference to biological features. A person with a penis etc.

A person with a penis is a male....right?

[Babb'sBurstNad]

7 minutes ago, Lario said:

You mean a boy/man?

 

Just now, CapeRed said:

A person with a penis is a male....right?

 

Or possibly a transwoman. Maybe even intersex.

 

This is why using the same terms for gender and sex complicates matters.

 

Does it really offend anyone saying "person with" rather than man or woman?

[Rico1304]

1 minute ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

 

 

Or possibly a transwoman. Maybe even intersex.

 

This is why using the same terms for gender and sex complicates matters.

 

Does it really offend anyone saying "person with" rather than man or woman?

Why intersex? That’s absolutely nothing to do with this and they really don’t like being dragged into this argument.  
 

Yes, women. 

[Lario]

5 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

 

 

Or possibly a transwoman. Maybe even intersex.

 

This is why using the same terms for gender and sex complicates matters.

 

Does it really offend anyone saying "person with" rather than man or woman?

Why does it have to be "offended"?

 

Can I not just think it's fucking ridiculous?

 

Or does everything have to be offensive now?

[Babb'sBurstNad]

2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Why intersex? That’s absolutely nothing to do with this and they really don’t like being dragged into this argument.  
 

Yes, women. 

I believe an intersex person can have a penis. I'm happy to be corrected if this is your area of knowledge. What they like or don't like has no bearing on their relevancy to a simple answer, does it?

 

Some women, and more than a few men who feel they speak for them. But then, the question was rhetorical, as I'm sure you knew. Someone will always be offended by something.

 

My point was merely why such language is used.

[SasaS]

9 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

 

 

Or possibly a transwoman. Maybe even intersex.

 

This is why using the same terms for gender and sex complicates matters.

 

Does it really offend anyone saying "person with" rather than man or woman?

As in The Old Person With a Penis and the Sea?

[Babb'sBurstNad]

5 minutes ago, Lario said:

Why does it have to be "offended"?

 

Can I not just think it's fucking ridiculous?

 

Or does everything have to be offensive now?

You can think what you want mate, the world is a ridiculous place. 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

1 minute ago, SasaS said:

As in The Old Person With a Penis and the Sea?

I'm not sure that was a medical text.

[Rico1304]

2 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

I believe an intersex person can have a penis. I'm happy to be corrected if this is your area of knowledge. What they like or don't like has no bearing on their relevancy to a simple answer, does it?

 

Some women, and more than a few men who feel they speak for them. But then, the question was rhetorical, as I'm sure you knew. Someone will always be offended by something.

 

My point was merely why such language is used.

Intersex or DSD are a range of medical conditions that sometimes have pretty terrible health implications. You can’t imagine why they would object to that term being used yet don’t see why women want to be called women?  
 

Language is important. We already have words that everyone knows the meaning of. If a TW chooses not to have their dick and balls removed (as 90% don’t) why should we change the meaning of words for them?  

[SasaS]

6 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

I'm not sure that was a medical text.

Oh, you were serious.

 

Are they really calling men "persons with a penis" (persons with penises?; penissed persons?) in medical texts now?

 

 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Intersex or DSD are a range of medical conditions that sometimes have pretty terrible health implications. You can’t imagine why they would object to that term being used yet don’t see why women want to be called women?  
 

Language is important. We already have words that everyone knows the meaning of. If a TW chooses not to have their dick and balls removed (as 90% don’t) why should we change the meaning of words for them?  

Firstly transmen exist. It might help if every example you gave wasn't fixated on transwomen. Secondly, why assume they've chosen to live with their bodies as is? The procedures are costly, and many can't afford them.

 

I agree completely about the importance of words. However, in my lifetime I've seen language change, words take new meanings, some become verboten and others surprisingly prevalent. Language, and its use, evolves.

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to get into a protracted conversation on the matter, I was just putting forward why some medical professionals are happy to use neutral language. 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

5 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Oh, you were serious.

 

Are they really calling men "persons with a penis" (persons with penises?; penissed persons?) in medical texts now?

 

 

Person with prostate, breasts etc.

 

Some medical professionals found trans people were less likely to come forward for mammograms and the old finger up the bum amongst other things if the terminology used was diametrically opposed to their lived gender. Seems weird at first glance, but I think the reasoning was sound.

[Rico1304]

5 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

Firstly transmen exist. It might help if every example you gave wasn't fixated on transwomen. Secondly, why assume they've chosen to live with their bodies as is? The procedures are costly, and many can't afford them.

 

I agree completely about the importance of words. However, in my lifetime I've seen language change, words take new meanings, some become verboten and others surprisingly prevalent. Language, and its use, evolves.

 

Anyway, I didn't mean to get into a protracted conversation on the matter, I was just putting forward why some medical professionals are happy to use neutral language. 

Of course they do.  But women identifying as men are not the same threat to men as the other way round.  
 

90% of men have said they aren’t interested in genital surgery.  It’s a pretty horrific surgery and requires a lifetime of medical treatment.  It’s effectively a wound that doesn’t heal.  
 

Language does change, but not usually at the demand of one party. ‘We are women now, so change the definition of woman to include men’. You don’t see an issue here?  
 

Follow Fond of Beetles on Twitter. She’ll open your eyes. 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

Of course they do.  But women identifying as men are not the same threat to men as the other way round.  
 

90% of men have said they aren’t interested in genital surgery.  It’s a pretty horrific surgery and requires a lifetime of medical treatment.  It’s effectively a wound that doesn’t heal.  
 

Language does change, but not usually at the demand of one party. ‘We are women now, so change the definition of woman to include men’. You don’t see an issue here?  
 

Follow Fond of Beetles on Twitter. She’ll open your eyes. 

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

 

Happy new year.

[Rico1304]

22 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

Person with prostate, breasts etc.

 

Some medical professionals found trans people were less likely to come forward for mammograms and the old finger up the bum amongst other things if the terminology used was diametrically opposed to their lived gender. Seems weird at first glance, but I think the reasoning was sound.

And conversely people who’s first language isn’t English or have special educational needs didn’t understand the new terminology.  

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Is intersex where girls look like boys and boys look like girls, and always should be someone we really love?

[SasaS]

13 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

Person with prostate, breasts etc.

 

Some medical professionals found trans people were less likely to come forward for mammograms and the old finger up the bum amongst other things if the terminology used was diametrically opposed to their lived gender. Seems weird at first glance, but I think the reasoning was sound.

That's totally bizarre.  Surely biological females identifying as male and the other way round are aware that they are / were medically considered their biological sex for the purposes of preventive medical examinations? So you are changing the traditionally accepted description for everyone, i.e. huge majority because not the tiny minority, but the minority of the tiny minority insist on their "lived gender" terminology over medical prevention? Call me conservative but that sounds absolutely bonkers to me.