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Gym Beglin

Transgender stuff - what's going on?

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1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

You don’t see a problem with men in womens toilets? Could you see why women might, especially if they do have cocks?  Also, how would differentiate between genuine trans women and blokes who want to go into womens toilets?   

 

Not really, no. The arguments to the contrary sound completely ludicrous: like there's a whole host of men dressing as women, so they can perve on them in the toilet. It's like when the Tories and Labour argued against Proportional Representation based on the fact that the BNP would have a seat in parliament. It's nonsensical. I'm not saying there aren't fringe cases, but you can't legislate for that. A trans woman just wants to go to the toilet in peace. It doesn't have to be made into this really fucked up seedy thing. 

 

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1 hour ago, A Red said:

I'm sorry but I dont follow. I've said, to paraphrase, they deserve respect but are not women. 

 

You implied I was being patronising, how so?

My point, which is pretty much the main point I continually try to make is that words you use matter.
 

like Rico weeks ago referring to a fictional trans woman that didn’t but could’ve worked at his place being “a bloke” when he’s talking about them behind their back, but “she” if in earshot - you know, to be polite.

 

you said similar in the post I responded to. They’re a bloke, but if they want to be a woman I’ll call them she when they’re around, but let’s all be clear I don’t mean it.

 

That’s patronising. Hardly a grand crime, but then I’ve not exactly had you up for a public hanging for it either.

 

 

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Why is everything so black and white? Toilets for example. 

 

How about instead of saying no transwomen in the ladies toilets because they are one of the few remaining safe spaces for women and the odd perv my take advantage of that, how about actually looking into safe spaces for women and addressing it? For example, you've decided to ban transwomen in toilets. Does this suddenly alleviate women feeling vulnerable in toilets? Can predatory men, regardless of what they are wearing still wander in the toilets and do whatever? Is this, in fact a far more common scenario then rapey Bill dressing as a woman and going into a ladies shitter to unleash his "lady cock" unchallenged? 

 

It's almost as if there are no solutions. But guess what, we've managed to come up with them for disabled people and baby changing. Why not have a series of lockable stalls instead of a mens and womens, complete with sinks and handryers? If this isn't logistical/affordable as I've just pulled it out my arse, speak to women and LGBTQ groups about affordable solutions. Ditto jails. 

 

 

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First time ive ventured into this thread and *big sigh*.

 

I have no desire to offend anyone but it just seems to me that someone somewhere has just stirred shit up unnecessarily creating a big fucking ball ache where only a tiny flipping ball ache existed before.

 

Do some people just love to moan and delight in being a victim? It seems so, but I stand to be corrected. No offence intended to anyone, live and let live, be excellent to each other, but I find this whole issue to be incredibly bizarre and incredibly tedious.

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13 hours ago, Captain Willard said:

This feels like we are groping in the dark towards if not an agreement then at least an understanding of where we are relatively speaking.  We seem to agree that irrespective of their country or class etc, black people share some common thread of a lived historical experience in a world which has been controlled and dominated by white people and which white people cannot appropriate however sympathetic they are. You cannot  as a white personal ‘identify as black’ because you have no idea what it means however much you think you do. So far so good. I think where we disagree is I think women share a similar common historical and cultural thread of living in a patriarchal world and well meaning men cannot appropriate that either. You can’t become a women anymore than you can become black.  That’s I think the main point of difference between us and this is my point of contention, men are, sometimes with the threat of violence, trying to blur and ultimately erode the meaning of what it is to br a women by denying that this history and cultural experience exists. 

 

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8 hours ago, Boss said:

 

Not really, no. The arguments to the contrary sound completely ludicrous: like there's a whole host of men dressing as women, so they can perve on them in the toilet. It's like when the Tories and Labour argued against Proportional Representation based on the fact that the BNP would have a seat in parliament. It's nonsensical. I'm not saying there aren't fringe cases, but you can't legislate for that. A trans woman just wants to go to the toilet in peace. It doesn't have to be made into this really fucked up seedy thing. 

 

Tell you what, if you think it’s safe and that there will be no harm then the burden of proof is on you.  Prove transwomen don’t offend at the same rate as men and then prove men won’t take advantage. 

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7 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

According to you it is. 

Nope. And this is why I no longer bother trying to argue with you (much) on this thread. Your blinkers are made out of the same stuff as Batfink's wings, so you're impervious to any facts or opinions other than your own (including your own opinion of what people who disagree with you are saying).

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10 hours ago, Boss said:

 

Not really, no. The arguments to the contrary sound completely ludicrous: like there's a whole host of men dressing as women, so they can perve on them in the toilet. It's like when the Tories and Labour argued against Proportional Representation based on the fact that the BNP would have a seat in parliament. It's nonsensical. I'm not saying there aren't fringe cases, but you can't legislate for that. A trans woman just wants to go to the toilet in peace. It doesn't have to be made into this really fucked up seedy thing. 

 

 

Whoa there bigot boy. Men dressing as women? What does dressing as a woman mean?

 

The trans debate is now about some fat hairy dude dressed like a man, having hairy balls, a beard and a beer belly proclaiming that they feel like a women and hence we all have to treat them as such.

 

There is no need to dress like a woman (whatever that means) to be trans. That is an old fashioned and trans intolerant approach to this matter.

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9 hours ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

My point, which is pretty much the main point I continually try to make is that words you use matter.
 

like Rico weeks ago referring to a fictional trans woman that didn’t but could’ve worked at his place being “a bloke” when he’s talking about them behind their back, but “she” if in earshot - you know, to be polite.

 

you said similar in the post I responded to. They’re a bloke, but if they want to be a woman I’ll call them she when they’re around, but let’s all be clear I don’t mean it.

 

That’s patronising. Hardly a grand crime, but then I’ve not exactly had you up for a public hanging for it either.

 

 

Its not patronising its reality.

 

I didn't say I would refer to them as blokes behind their backs, I said they are blokes. I would refer to them, to their face or behind their backs, as female, its the polite thing to do. When it comes down to the nitty gritty though, they are blokes. I can see you agree with this so there really is not argument between us.

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36 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Nope. And this is why I no longer bother trying to argue with you (much) on this thread. Your blinkers are made out of the same stuff as Batfink's wings, so you're impervious to any facts or opinions other than your own (including your own opinion of what people who disagree with you are saying).

Sex is binary and immutable. That’s a fact not opinion.  Magic words can’t change that. An opinion piece in Nature can’t change that.  
 

You getting a bit twitchy about your mantra TWAW when it’s becoming more obvious that’s bollocks.   

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9 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

I find it slightly odd that "trans" is becoming a synonym for trans women in these kinds of debate. Trans men exist too.

It doesn't seem to be an issue though when the transition is the other way. Men aren't arsed about women who 'self define' as men coming into their midst in a men's changing room while their young sons are getting changed, nor are they arsed about women competing in men's sports or going to men's prisons.

 

Either women are inherently more bigoted than men, or there are more complex factors at play here around feelings of personal safety/competitiveness built around women's physicality and life experiences that men - be they transgender or not - can not fathom. 

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13 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

I find it slightly odd that "trans" is becoming a synonym for trans women in these kinds of debate. Trans men exist too.

I think it's just used in whatever context is deemed most convenient at the time...

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A trans man is very unlikely to sexually assault men, unless their offending behaviour changes, are a minimal risk to men in terms of violence and won’t dominate male sports.   

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38 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

It doesn't seem to be an issue though when the transition is the other way. Men aren't arsed about women who 'self define' as men coming into their midst in a men's changing room while their young sons are getting changed, nor are they arsed about women competing in men's sports or going to men's prisons.

 

Either women are inherently more bigoted than men, or there are more complex factors at play here around feelings of personal safety/competitiveness built around women's physicality and life experiences that men - be they transgender or not - can not fathom. 

All fair points, but you've got to admit that whenever there's pushback against self identification based on feeling - a general debate, not taking into account risk factors, safe spaces etc, - the example given is almost always "a man can't know what it feels like to be a woman". It's rare it's the other way around.

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20 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

All fair points, but you've got to admit that whenever there's pushback against self identification based on feeling - a general debate, not taking into account risk factors, safe spaces etc, - the example given is almost always "a man can't know what it feels like to be a woman". It's rare it's the other way around.

I suppose it's a balancing act. Society has been trying for years to change the narrative around women, along the lines of 'anything a man can do, a woman can'. But whether we like it or not, physically, that's simply not true. 

 

Men, by and large, don't fear women, I imagine every woman in the world has, at some stage, felt fear of men. That seriously muddies the waters around the transgender self identification debate. 

 

If a man who was still clearly a man walked into a woman's changing rooms many if not all of those women would feel uncomfortable and possibly afraid. If a woman walked into a men's changing room, you'd get nowhere near that, attitudes would vary between amusement and mild embarrassment. 

 

It's just not the same debate at all. 

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3 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

I suppose it's a balancing act. Society has been trying for years to change the narrative around women, along the lines of 'anything a man can do, a woman can'. But whether we like it or not, physically, that's simply not true. 

 

Men, by and large, don't fear women, I imagine every woman in the world has, at some stage, felt fear of men. That seriously muddies the waters around the transgender self identification debate. 

 

If a man who was still clearly a man walked into a woman's changing rooms many if not all of those women would feel uncomfortable and possibly afraid. If a woman walked into a men's changing room, you'd get nowhere near that, attitudes would vary between amusement and mild embarrassment. 

 

It's just not the same debate at all. 

Again, fair points. However, my point was that when a philosophical debate - unrelated to danger - about self identification is raised, I find it odd how the dissenting voices (of men in particular) so often focus on trans women. Just odd is all. 

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2 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Nope. And this is why I no longer bother trying to argue with you (much) on this thread. Your blinkers are made out of the same stuff as Batfink's wings, so you're impervious to any facts or opinions other than your own (including your own opinion of what people who disagree with you are saying).

Just in case proof were required...

2 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Sex is binary and immutable. That’s a fact not opinion.  Magic words can’t change that. An opinion piece in Nature can’t change that.  
 

You getting a bit twitchy about your mantra TWAW when it’s becoming more obvious that’s bollocks.   

 

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20 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Just in case proof were required...

 

Putting your fingers in your ears and shouting doesn’t make it go away. 
 

Let me ask you, if sex isn’t binary have any of the blokes you know ever worried about getting pregnant? 

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