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Gym Beglin

Transgender stuff - what's going on?

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11 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

You’ve admitted that you know nothing about the subject, you know nothing about the law, you know nothing about any of the conflicting  rights you just want everyone to be nice.  And by nice you want women to make room for men.  
 

Are TW a subset of men or women? Come on. Easy. 

I've answered the question already, my opinion hasn't changed in the past 12 hours or so. I honestly don't know or particularly care where you are going with this. I think transgender women should be treated as women.

 

And do fuck off with your misrepresenting me. I said I know nothing about prison welfare, I believe it to be a complicated subject hence my reference to youth offending and mental health issues. Do you agree these are complicated subjects or that it's very easy to make sweeping broad judgements? Do you extend that opinion to transgender issues in prison? Do you concede that vulnerable prisoners need protecting and do you extend trans people into the field of potentially vulnerable prisoners or does that only cover women? 

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1 hour ago, Remmie said:

I've answered the question already, my opinion hasn't changed in the past 12 hours or so. I honestly don't know or particularly care where you are going with this. I think transgender women should be treated as women.

 

And do fuck off with your misrepresenting me. I said I know nothing about prison welfare, I believe it to be a complicated subject hence my reference to youth offending and mental health issues. Do you agree these are complicated subjects or that it's very easy to make sweeping broad judgements? Do you extend that opinion to transgender issues in prison? Do you concede that vulnerable prisoners need protecting and do you extend trans people into the field of potentially vulnerable prisoners or does that only cover women? 

You’ve answered a different question, not the one I asked. So, which is it?  Are they a subset of men or women?  
 

I think (sorry know) that women in prison are some of the most marginalised people in the U.K.  The majority of them are there for nonviolent crimes and a huge proportion have been the victim of sexual violence. So, putting any men in there is absolutely abhorrent. Whether you want to be nice or not.  
 

Vulnerable people should be protected in prison, shifting the issue to women is not any solution.  Make men’s prisons safer, you don’t do that by making women’s prisons more dangerous.  Ask Karen Whites victims. 
 

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Just now, Remmie said:

Ask me again, maybe the answer will be different the 4th time.

Would you like a cup of tea? Bananas 

 

What about the tea? Bananas

 

Tea? I’ve told you, bananas  

 

I’ll make it easier for you. Trans men are;

 

a) A subset of men

b) A subset of women

 

please provide the letter that represents your views. 

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Oh the question is rephrased!!! Fantastic. All becomes clear.

 

C) Trans Men should be treated as trans men.

 

I am not interested in this subset nonsense. But maybe I could be. Persuade me. Explain the purpose and relevance. Or, maybe repeat the question again and this time I'll write something ever so slightly different.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Oh the question is rephrased!!! Fantastic. All becomes clear.

 

C) Trans Men should be treated as trans men.

 

I am not interested in this subset nonsense. But maybe I could be. Persuade me. Explain the purpose and relevance. Or, maybe repeat the question again and this time I'll write something ever so slightly different.

 

 

Right, so you acknowledge that there is a difference between TW and women. Now currently that would put you at odds with the TRAs who are the loudest voices in this argument. They would say that TW are women. Plain and simple. There is no distinction between say your mum and Kaitlin Jenner.  They are equally women.  As such they should have the same status under the law and all the rights that go with it.  Currently in the U.K. a TW has to follow a process to obtain a GRC, that process includes a medical diagnosis and living as a woman for a period of time.  Once the GRC is awarded the TW has most of the rights of a woman with a limited number of exceptions.  She also has protection under the law from discrimination as having a GRC is a protected category.  The process is there to weed out the chancers and ensure that those given the GRC have shown (for want of a better phrase) commitment to the cause.  It’s an important thing to give access to women’s spaces and rights so needs to be policed. 
 

If TWAW that process goes away.  They are women so why should they have to prove it?  Self ID is enough to declare yourself a woman and access to all the rights that comes with it.  There’d be no ability to police women’s spaces, these people say they are women therefore they are.  Challenging the bearded person, who has a penis and is naked in the women’s changing room is bigoted. She is a good women.  
 

Woman have fought for their own toilets, safe spaces etc because men are violent and sexually assault them on a regular basis. Allowing anyone into those spaces (toilets, sports, prisons) puts them in danger. People who say this (like JK Rowling) are called bigots.  

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5 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Right, so you acknowledge that there is a difference between TW and women. Now currently that would put you at odds with the TRAs who are the loudest voices in this argument. They would say that TW are women. Plain and simple. There is no distinction between say your mum and Kaitlin Jenner.  They are equally women.  As such they should have the same status under the law and all the rights that go with it.  Currently in the U.K. a TW has to follow a process to obtain a GRC, that process includes a medical diagnosis and living as a woman for a period of time.  Once the GRC is awarded the TW has most of the rights of a woman with a limited number of exceptions.  She also has protection under the law from discrimination as having a GRC is a protected category.  The process is there to weed out the chancers and ensure that those given the GRC have shown (for want of a better phrase) commitment to the cause.  It’s an important thing to give access to women’s spaces and rights so needs to be policed. 
 

If TWAW that process goes away.  They are women so why should they have to prove it?  Self ID is enough to declare yourself a woman and access to all the rights that comes with it.  There’d be no ability to police women’s spaces, these people say they are women therefore they are.  Challenging the bearded person, who has a penis and is naked in the women’s changing room is bigoted. She is a good women.  
 

Woman have fought for their own toilets, safe spaces etc because men are violent and sexually assault them on a regular basis. Allowing anyone into those spaces (toilets, sports, prisons) puts them in danger. People who say this (like JK Rowling) are called bigots.  

I don't agree all of with this but do appreciate the time to express this in depth and well argued instead of the usual rude off-hand manner. I am off to catch a train so don't have time to respond but will try to at a later date.

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Just now, Nelly-Torres said:

Puberty blockers judgement in Tavistock v Bell overruled by the Court of Appeal. 

 

Anybody checked on Rico? 

It was always going to be overturned. Doctors should manage treatment, not judges. But, it’s not quite the slam dunk you think it is.  Doctors now have to prove they are effective. That’s going to be tough. 

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Scottish women who’ve been raped are now not using the Edinburgh rape crisis centre because they are worried men will be there.  ‘Can’t we just be nice’ has some serious consequences.  

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THE head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

 

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

 

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

 

E4ydnvJVIAIyvdj.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

THE head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

 

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

 

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

 

E4ydnvJVIAIyvdj.jpg

‘Her’ job was advertised as for women only, she knew that and applied anyway. Didn’t tell them she was a man. Now, the inevitable has happened. Another thing that we were told wouldn’t happen has happened.  

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2 hours ago, Section_31 said:

THE head of one of Scotland’s biggest rape crisis centres has suggested “bigoted” rape survivors should be re-educated about transgender rights as part of recovering from their trauma.

 

Mridul Wadhwa, a transgender woman, said people would not truly recover unless they addressed their “unacceptable beliefs” because “therapy is political”.

 

She said: “We will work with you... but please expect to be challenged on your prejudices."

 

E4ydnvJVIAIyvdj.jpg

Tumbleweed from the regular posters on this one. Why’s that?  Maybe the real life consequences of their bollocks. 

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'Minister for equalities Kemi Badenoch called trans women “men” and questioned their campaign for equal rights in a leaked audio recording.

 

Ms Badenoch, who has just been given a key ministerial position in the housing ministry, reportedly made the comments in her parliamentary office in 2018, a year after she was elected as an MP.

 

In the conversation, which was reported by Vice World News, Ms Badenoch seemed to suggest that transgender people had campaigned for increased rights because they wanted to pick a cause. Ms Badenoch argued that politics had moved on from debates about the rights of ethnic minorities, adding: “It’s not even about sexuality now. It’s now like the whole transgender movement, where, OK well we’ve got gay marriage, and civil partnerships, so what are transsexuals looking for?”

 

The phrase transsexual, like transvestite, is considered outdated and offensive by some transgender people.

She then went on to talk about the debate over gender-neutral bathrooms, saying: “Even when ... people hear about ... the whole bathroom thing, its actually more of an American thing but they have a similar problem, that ... now it’s not just about being free to marry who you want, you now want to have men using women’s bathrooms.”

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kemi-badenoch-transgender-transphobia-equalities-b1922103.html

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3 hours ago, Bruce Spanner said:

'Minister for equalities Kemi Badenoch called trans women “men” and questioned their campaign for equal rights in a leaked audio recording.

 

Ms Badenoch, who has just been given a key ministerial position in the housing ministry, reportedly made the comments in her parliamentary office in 2018, a year after she was elected as an MP.

 

In the conversation, which was reported by Vice World News, Ms Badenoch seemed to suggest that transgender people had campaigned for increased rights because they wanted to pick a cause. Ms Badenoch argued that politics had moved on from debates about the rights of ethnic minorities, adding: “It’s not even about sexuality now. It’s now like the whole transgender movement, where, OK well we’ve got gay marriage, and civil partnerships, so what are transsexuals looking for?”

 

The phrase transsexual, like transvestite, is considered outdated and offensive by some transgender people.

She then went on to talk about the debate over gender-neutral bathrooms, saying: “Even when ... people hear about ... the whole bathroom thing, its actually more of an American thing but they have a similar problem, that ... now it’s not just about being free to marry who you want, you now want to have men using women’s bathrooms.”

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/kemi-badenoch-transgender-transphobia-equalities-b1922103.html

What’s the issue here?  Biology?  Transsexual is the word used in the legislation.  

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4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

What’s the issue here?  Biology?  Transsexual is the word used in the legislation.  

 

There's more to the recordings where she calls them men etc.

 

Badenoch has a history of being an arse and should be nowhere near equalities.

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21 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

They are men.  Well, expect the ones who are women.  
 

 

 

The outliers, yes, they are and they are distorting any progress, especially the examples you bring up routinely as they are at the fringes of the debate but what it's centered around, quite rightly in some cases.

 

Gender is a construct and if you want to subvert that or feel you fit into the other catagory, which I've always found odd in all honesty as that seems to accept that the construct is binary and there's a clear choice in one or the other where I would expect the destruction of this binary, anyway I digress, then knock yourself out, none of my buisness,

 

Biologically they were men/women at birth and if they have had realignment surgery/hormone treatment their bodies act as their new genders biological functions should act, within reason. Where I think we intersect is the idea of a 'man' in a dress expecting the same hard one rights as women for no other reason than they say so. The book 'How to be a women' defies logic and in truth I find it quite offensive, but I'm not the target market and maybe my thoughts aren't the ones people should be paying attention to. I have no problem with her living her life with any pronoun whatsoever but something just doesn't sit right, but I've only read the sensationalised parts so can't fully commit.

 

I'm in agreement with some of the things you say, the Edinbrough case especially is a farce and people need to have a real sensible conversation about it without the noise generated by social media as quite clearly it's a situation which is unsustainable.

 

Wider though I have trans friends who I consider close and some of this bemuses' me still, but they are just getting on with their lives trying to make the most of the one and only go on the carosel, yet they are constantly forced to defend others individual acts under the banner of inclusion. I also know one trans person who has two characters male/female and it uses them interchangebly, now she is neither man nor woman, she is 'her/it' within the construct of gender and I can get my head around that though I actually believe she's mentally ill, as do other people, but the law isn't built with ambiguity in mind and that's what people with far bigger brains than me need to sort out. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

The outliers, yes, they are and they are distorting any progress, especially the examples you bring up routunely as they are at the fringes of the debate but what it's centered around, quite rightly in some cases.

 

Gender is a construct and if you want to subvert that or feel you fit into the other catagory, which I've always found odd in all honesty as that seems to accept that the construct is binary and there's a clear choice in one or the other where I would expect the destruction of this binary, anyway I digress, then knock yourself out, none of my buisness,

 

Biologically they were men/women at birth and if they have had realignment surgery/hormone treatment their bodies act as their new genders biological functions should act, within reason. Where I think we intersect is the idea of a 'man' in a dress expecting the same hard one rights as women for no other reason than they say so. The book 'How to be a women' defies logic and in truth I find it quite offensive, but I'm not the target market and maybe my thoughts aren't the ones people should be paying attention to. I have no problem with her living her life with any pronoun whatsoever but something just doesn't sit right, but I've only read the sensationalised parts so can't fully commit.

 

I'm in agreement with some of the things you say, the Edinbrough case especially is a farce and people need to have a real sensible conversation about it without the noise generated by social media as quite clearly it's a situation which is unsustainable.

 

Wider though I have trans friends who I consider close and some of this bemuses' me still, but they are just getting on with their lives trying to make the most of the one and only go on the carosel, yet they are constantly forced to defend others individual acts under the banner of inclusion. I also know one trans person who has two characters male/female and it uses them interchangebly, now she is neither man nor woman, she is 'her/it' within the construct of gender and I can get my head around that though I actually believe she's mentally ill, as do other people, but the law isn't built with ambiguity in mind and that's what people with far bigger brains than me need to sort out. 

 

 

I agree with most of that, but being a facsimile of a sex doesn’t make you that sex. I could kidnap you and chop off your cock, implant fake tits and fill you full of hormones but that wouldn’t make you a woman would it?  (Got quite turned on then). I’m all for being polite and playing to the fiction but it is a fiction.  A man can no more feel like a woman than he can feel like a cat. That’s because he has no idea what it feels to be cat.  He can think it’s all about sleeping and chasing mice and licking it’s arse but it’s a his view of what it’s like being a cat. 

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10 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I agree with most of that, but being a facsimile of a sex doesn’t make you that sex. I could kidnap you and chop off your cock, implant fake tits and fill you full of hormones but that wouldn’t make you a woman would it?  (Got quite turned on then). I’m all for being polite and playing to the fiction but it is a fiction.  A man can no more feel like a woman than he can feel like a cat. That’s because he has no idea what it feels to be cat.  He can think it’s all about sleeping and chasing mice and licking it’s arse but it’s a his view of what it’s like being a cat. 

 

Maybe, but who am I to stop them if they believe that's what they want to be.

 

They'll always be 'other' lets just try and make them feel a little less so, perhaps?

 

Anyhow's back to this kidnapping, I'll be PM'ing my detailed whereabouts over the next week of two for no particular reason.

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56 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I agree with most of that, but being a facsimile of a sex doesn’t make you that sex. I could kidnap you and chop off your cock, implant fake tits and fill you full of hormones but that wouldn’t make you a woman would it?  (Got quite turned on then). I’m all for being polite and playing to the fiction but it is a fiction.  A man can no more feel like a woman than he can feel like a cat. That’s because he has no idea what it feels to be cat.  He can think it’s all about sleeping and chasing mice and licking it’s arse but it’s a his view of what it’s like being a cat. 

This to me is the essence of the issue. People can wear whatever they want and call themselves whatever they want but they can’t use “transphobia” to make the rest of us fall in line. If a white bloke puts in a dress and calls himself a women, I’m transphobic if I disagree, if he then puts on make up and calls himself a black women what is he ? and what are we if we disagree ? Can you change race by self identification and if not why is gender different ? 

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Quite a few Lib Dem’s on the radio today. Each one asked ‘what is a woman?’  Not one able to answer. 
 

It’ll be an easy win at the next election.  

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28 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Quite a few Lib Dem’s on the radio today. Each one asked ‘what is a woman?’  Not one able to answer. 
 

It’ll be an easy win at the next election.  

Pointless having them on in the first place. Plus, we all know they're mostly just tories in yellow so you wouldn't expect a direct answer to a question. 

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