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Transgender stuff - what's going on?

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On 13/09/2021 at 17:20, Bob Spunkmouse said:

So what about the large (and growing) number of trans women, who don’t have (or want) beards, who don’t want to change to be male one day and female the next, who don’t want to take up elite level sport, and who don’t want to rape female prisoners. What about them?

 

they feel like women, and are transitioning to whatever degree they are comfortable, to being a woman and living as that person they currently are. 
 

what about them?

 

I don’t give a flying one about any of your wider points. If you expressed them in a way that wasn’t to ugly I might engage with them more and I’m sure I’m many cases agree with you, but that’s not why I’m here.

 

what about those trans women that want to be able to live in their current state and be recognised as existing without being referred to as “blokes” and having to piss in the men’s bogs? 
 

To you, by your words, they either don’t exist (which they do) or they don’t matter (which is pretty sad).

 

that’s what I’m bothered by. That’s all.

 

I think there’s a very complex and important conversation to be had about children in all of this.

 

outside of children, there’s a clear (but again complicated) need to prevent exploitation of this by individuals keen to exploit. Whether sport or life.

 

but alongside that there’s also a need to not be a prick towards a large and growing number of people that just want to be comfortable living their life without having to get your fucking approval.

What about the ones who don't want to exploit, as such, but still put cis-women at a disadvantage, for example in sports?

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1 minute ago, Moo said:

What about the ones who don't want to exploit, as such, but still put cis-women at a disadvantage, for example in sports?

I honestly don’t know. In terms of answers to the question and in terms of biology. So I have no reply of worth on the matter.

 

I’d say it’s likely (although I have no numbers) that the vast majority of trans women aren’t likely to compete (or try to) at the next olympics - even if the floodgates have now been opened if you’d listen to Rico.

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1 minute ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I honestly don’t know. In terms of answers to the question and in terms of biology. So I have no reply of worth on the matter.

 

I’d say it’s likely (although I have no numbers) that the vast majority of trans women aren’t likely to compete (or try to) at the next olympics - even if the floodgates have now been opened if you’d listen to Rico.

Well there have been two recent studies that show strength is retained for at least three years of T suppression. It’s three years as that’s the longest study but there’s no reason to believe it’s not longer.  One of the studies was authored by a trans woman.  

Moo said sports not Olympics.  Any sports at all levels.  Men and women’s sports are separated for a reason. You know that, you know why but can’t admit it so put a jibe in about the Olympics where at least 1 woman stayed at home because a second rate man took her place.  

 

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36 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Well there have been two recent studies that show strength is retained for at least three years of T suppression. It’s three years as that’s the longest study but there’s no reason to believe it’s not longer.  One of the studies was authored by a trans woman.  

Moo said sports not Olympics.  Any sports at all levels.  Men and women’s sports are separated for a reason. You know that, you know why but can’t admit it so put a jibe in about the Olympics where at least 1 woman stayed at home because a second rate man took her place.  

 

Nope. Not all sport. Not even all elite sport.  Most, fine, admittedly. I still don’t profess to have an answer, but I’m still not overly worried that there’s going to be a swath of second rate men clogging up elite level women’s sport. 
 

the main intent of my reply though - which you realise but choose to ignore - is that the vast majority of trans women are highly unlikely to be trying to gain sporting advantage from transitioning to being a woman. But carry on ignoring that point and shouting at the margins and outliers like that’s the only thing

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4 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

Nope. Not all sport. Not even all elite sport.  Most, fine, admittedly. I still don’t profess to have an answer, but I’m still not overly worried that there’s going to be a swath of second rate men clogging up elite level women’s sport. 
 

the main intent of my reply though - which you realise but choose to ignore - is that the vast majority of trans women are highly unlikely to be trying to gain sporting advantage from transitioning to being a woman. But carry on ignoring that point and shouting at the margins and outliers like that’s the only thing

Oh right, so they may not be seeking an advantage but they’ll have one.  They’ll be faster, stronger, have bigger hearts and lungs, massively more upper body strength and bone density. They’ll also have the advantages of better aim and throw and a punch that’s about 160% greater.  All because they’ve been through male puberty. So I absolutely agree it’s unlikely a Sunday league player will transition to play a better standard any TW will have those advantages whether they want them or not. 
 

TW are are subset of men - true or false?  

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1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

Oh right, so they may not be seeking an advantage but they’ll have one.  They’ll be faster, stronger, have bigger hearts and lungs, massively more upper body strength and bone density. They’ll also have the advantages of better aim and throw and a punch that’s about 160% greater.  All because they’ve been through male puberty. So I absolutely agree it’s unlikely a Sunday league player will transition to play a better standard any TW will have those advantages whether they want them or not. 
 

TW are are subset of men - true or false?  

You’ve misunderstood my point. Not sure if deliberately or just because you’re so hell bent on seeing a problem. The reason the vast majority won’t be seeking a sporting advantage is because the vast (vast) majority of people - male, female, trans, intersex, whatever you like - do not compete in competitive sport beyond a the level of a fun run, a Tuesday night kick about (as I’ve just returned from) or 18

holes with a +16 handicap. 

the fact someone will now have a better aim (what?) because they’re not a born female, make a fucking difference to who?

 

fine, there needs to be some thought and care in competitive sport at elite level, and there’ll be mistake and missteps along the way, but is it worth getting your boxers in a bunch over? (I thought saying knickers in a twist might trigger you).

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Ah, it’s only girls sport. It doesn’t matter. I mean it’s lucky we let them play at all.  
 

What’s that word again, begins with an m.  

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Have you ever played any sport Bob?  Have you ever been in the situation where the opposition bring in a ringer, someone who is just too good for the standard and influences the game to a degree it becomes shite?  That’s what you are saying doesn’t matter. 
 

There are 121k registered women footballers in the U.K.   Seems like quite a few women enjoy more than jumpers for goalposts.  

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13 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Ah, it’s only girls sport. It doesn’t matter. I mean it’s lucky we let them play at all.  
 

What’s that word again, begins with an m.  

You’re either stupid, deliberately obtuse, or fucking bonkers. I don’t think it’s the first.

 

I used to play football as a kid. Since leaving school I’ve only ever played on a casual, non-competitive level. I’m like the vast majority of people. For a good while I played in a 5-a-side team that arranged games against another group that had two women playing in their side. They managed just fine against us big strong men with our “superior aim”. Cause we’re all generally just playing for a bit of fun and not that good. That’s MOST PEOPLE.

 

there was an article in the news a fair few years ago now of a trans woman up here in Leeds who was barred for playing for her amateur league women’s team even though she was legally recognised as a woman. Her teammates were upset about it and she was excluded from playing sport. Are you telling me that’s the price you’re pleased with? Who is winning from that?

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2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Have you ever played any sport Bob?  Have you ever been in the situation where the opposition bring in a ringer, someone who is just too good for the standard and influences the game to a degree it becomes shite?  That’s what you are saying doesn’t matter. 
 

There are 121k registered women footballers in the U.K.   Seems like quite a few women enjoy more than jumpers for goalposts.  

My daughter is one of those 121k. Women’s football is hugely popular. That’s a good thing. It’s still mostly fun rather than an important matter. Yeah people give a shit if they win, but I’d hope most won’t want people to be excluded from sport.

 

you won’t change my mind on this. Outside of high level I don’t think this is the issue you want it to be.

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4 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

My daughter is one of those 121k. Women’s football is hugely popular. That’s a good thing. It’s still mostly fun rather than an important matter. Yeah people give a shit if they win, but I’d hope most won’t want people to be excluded from sport.

 

you won’t change my mind on this. Outside of high level I don’t think this is the issue you want it to be.

Girls just wanna have fun. Fucking hell.  
 

So you’d feel better if the women participating would budge up and let other people in because in your view it’s just for larks.  I’m sure that sounds just perfect to your ears.  

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I’m going. You’re insufferable in the way to constantly twist what I’ve written to try and make it some kind of different story.


For the record, my opinion is that PEDs probably aren’t an issue in most women’s amateur sports. Their probably not an issue in most men’s amateur sport either. Obviously strength based sports like boxing and weightlifting there might be, but I’m sure the authorities can have a think about it. I don’t expect it’s an

issue in recreational hockey, netball or football though.

 

the VAST majority of ALL sport played in this country is played for competitive fun. That’s what amateur sport is.

 

At every level of footy I’ve ever played since leaving school, there’s been at least one or two lads that were genuinely shite. Like proper rubbish. Actual MEN who are crap at football. Put them in a women’s league and the opposition would be delighted. Yeah, they’re be taller probably, and maybe have stronger bones, and better aim obviously (what?) but they’d still be shite.

 

so the thrust of my argument is that most trans women won’t be trying to play sport beyond “for fun” recreational level, if at all. Like the fucking rest of us.

 

those few that are, and genuinely are transitioning to live as women and want to compete at a high level of sport probably ought to expect some hurdles (especially if they want to run the hurdles) and the authorities need to think hard about how they manage it and ensure fairness and will probably make mistakes along the way, but the VAST majority of trans women will not be causing your sleepless nights on this issue - which is why it’s so irritating when you use it as a colourful distraction point.

 

If it’s a level of competitiveness that can be considered recreational, then the world would be better if it can be tolerant enough to let people in. Although, I hope they don’t go on to rape their teammates in the showers which is probably the only reason they’re ALL really doing it the dastardly deviants.


Out. Night. Try not to have nightmares about trans women hiding under your bed, with their super straight and incredible aim.

 

x

 

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59 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

You’re either stupid, deliberately obtuse, or fucking bonkers. I don’t think it’s the first.

 

I used to play football as a kid. Since leaving school I’ve only ever played on a casual, non-competitive level. I’m like the vast majority of people. For a good while I played in a 5-a-side team that arranged games against another group that had two women playing in their side. They managed just fine against us big strong men with our “superior aim”. Cause we’re all generally just playing for a bit of fun and not that good. That’s MOST PEOPLE.

 

there was an article in the news a fair few years ago now of a trans woman up here in Leeds who was barred for playing for her amateur league women’s team even though she was legally recognised as a woman. Her teammates were upset about it and she was excluded from playing sport. Are you telling me that’s the price you’re pleased with? Who is winning from that?

I'm not too fussed either about sport for fun or fitness, as long as people aren't put in additional danger.  

 

But what about in professional or elite sports?  Just because there aren't great numbers now doesn't mean there never will be, and potentially in a short space of time.  People seriously underestimate "visibility matters".

 

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1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

Ah, it’s only girls sport. It doesn’t matter. I mean it’s lucky we let them play at all.  
 

What’s that word again, begins with an m.  

monotony?

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7 minutes ago, Moo said:

I'm not too fussed either about sport for fun or fitness, as long as people aren't put in additional danger.  

 

But what about in professional or elite sports?  Just because there aren't great numbers now doesn't mean there never will be, and potentially in a short space of time.  People seriously underestimate "visibility matters".

 

I think at elite level it’s something authorities need to think hard about and keep trying to work out. And I don’t think it’s easy. I also don’t think it’s worthy of scare mongering and shouting (not you) at this point in time. Unless you have alternative reasons to want to scaremonger and shout, that is (not you).

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6 hours ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I’m going. You’re insufferable in the way to constantly twist what I’ve written to try and make it some kind of different story.


For the record, my opinion is that PEDs probably aren’t an issue in most women’s amateur sports. Their probably not an issue in most men’s amateur sport either. Obviously strength based sports like boxing and weightlifting there might be, but I’m sure the authorities can have a think about it. I don’t expect it’s an

issue in recreational hockey, netball or football though.

 

the VAST majority of ALL sport played in this country is played for competitive fun. That’s what amateur sport is.

 

At every level of footy I’ve ever played since leaving school, there’s been at least one or two lads that were genuinely shite. Like proper rubbish. Actual MEN who are crap at football. Put them in a women’s league and the opposition would be delighted. Yeah, they’re be taller probably, and maybe have stronger bones, and better aim obviously (what?) but they’d still be shite.

 

so the thrust of my argument is that most trans women won’t be trying to play sport beyond “for fun” recreational level, if at all. Like the fucking rest of us.

 

those few that are, and genuinely are transitioning to live as women and want to compete at a high level of sport probably ought to expect some hurdles (especially if they want to run the hurdles) and the authorities need to think hard about how they manage it and ensure fairness and will probably make mistakes along the way, but the VAST majority of trans women will not be causing your sleepless nights on this issue - which is why it’s so irritating when you use it as a colourful distraction point.

 

If it’s a level of competitiveness that can be considered recreational, then the world would be better if it can be tolerant enough to let people in. Although, I hope they don’t go on to rape their teammates in the showers which is probably the only reason they’re ALL really doing it the dastardly deviants.


Out. Night. Try not to have nightmares about trans women hiding under your bed, with their super straight and incredible aim.

 

x

 

The old ‘it won’t happen’ argument. After pages of ‘it’s happening’.  
 

Since 2000 3,000 boys have beaten the women’s 100m world record.  

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22 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

The old ‘it won’t happen’ argument. After pages of ‘it’s happening’.  
 

Since 2000 3,000 boys have beaten the women’s 100m world record.  

Transgender girls are they? 

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54 minutes ago, Paulie Dangerously said:

the standard of women’s football is not just inferior to the standard of men’s football because of puberty alone though is it?

 

Rico said theres 121k registered women footballers in the uk, how many males are there? One or two more I’d guess?


Looks like Rico underestimated - from the 2015 FA State of tye Game report:..

 

“8.2 million adults of which 6.25 million are men and 2.03 million are women

3.35 million children, aged 5-15 or which 2.49 million are boys and 860,000 are girls.”

 

I assume similar numbers will exist in most places - perhaps the US is an outlier to that where men’s football has never been a staple. Maybe? I don’t know.

 

So there’s a much smaller pool of talent.

 

There’s far fewer coaches, far fewer scouts, training facilities and academies. 
 

Then there’s the level of competition faced.   Iron sharpens iron? 
 

all of those factor into why gremio u-16 might trounce the women’s national team.

 

yeah, genetics and puberty plays a part but it’s not isolated. And that also counts as elite sport, so best be sure the authorities have a plan for if all those lads suddenly start transitioning to being women.

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I can never understand why is that even controversial, if you are a biological male, you cannot compete in a restricted women's category, you can, however, freely remain in a non-restricted category (or enter it) and play football as a trans woman. In reality, there is no "men's football" (or any other sport), there is football and there is "women's" football", which is restricted to participants who are women. And there is a reason for that, which nobody needs explaining.

 

On the other hand, if it doesn't matter, there is no clear biological advantage, trans women can compete, or play for fun, in the nonrestrictive category. The category in which most of these people began playing or competing anyway. If one of our players decides to transition, we can start calling him she, and she can continue playing for us, no problem. No need to drop a hundred pay grades and play against people who cannot ran as fast, jump as high, hit/kick the ball as hard etc. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, SasaS said:

I can never understand why is that even controversial, if you are a biological male, you cannot compete in a restricted women's category, you can, however, freely remain in a non-restricted category (or enter it) and play football as a trans woman. In reality, there is no "men's football" (or any other sport), there is football and there is "women's" football", which is restricted to participants who are women. And there is a reason for that, which nobody needs explaining.

 

On the other hand, if it doesn't matter, there is no clear biological advantage, trans women can compete, or play for fun, in the nonrestrictive category. The category in which most of these people began playing or competing anyway. If one of our players decides to transition, we can start calling him she, and she can continue playing for us, no problem. No need to drop a hundred pay grades and play against people who cannot ran as fast, jump as high, hit/kick the ball as hard etc. 

 

 

You’d think wouldn’t you.  

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