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Gym Beglin

Transgender stuff - what's going on?

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5 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I have answered that in my post. I feel compelled to challenge your words because the way you use them feels vindictive and makes me uncomfortable and my nature tends to adopt a defence in

such circumstances.

 

Normally when someone is speaking in the way you do on this matter, and the people on the receiving end are a minority of any form, opposing those views ends up having been the right thing to do.

The cape gave it away. 

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12 minutes ago, Moo said:

Also fair.

 

I was going to say, after my little discussion with the same poster yesterday about changing rooms and bathrooms, the general discourse on this subject is far too polarised.  There can't possibly be a satisfactory resolution when there's people on both "sides" so entrenched.

What’s this ‘same poster’ bollocks?  

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4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

What’s this ‘same poster’ bollocks?  

Sorry Rico1304, didn't mean to offend. 

I forgot your numbers and didn't feel comfortable calling you just Rico as I'm not one of the regular posters on here. Simple as that.

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Just now, Moo said:

Sorry Rico1304, didn't mean to offend. 

I forgot your numbers and didn't feel comfortable calling you just Rico as I'm not one of the regular posters on here. Simple as that.

The numbers are only my PIN 

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24 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Incredibly relevant, I'll just go and get a monkey vs human study to counter it

Mmm, monkey Olympics- that might be the first sense you’ve made on this thread. 
 

Obviously it’s incredibly relevant.  It shows that men (even boys) have a biological advantage so great that their performances completely dominate the women. 

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6 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Mmm, monkey Olympics- that might be the first sense you’ve made on this thread. 
 

Obviously it’s incredibly relevant.  It shows that men (even boys) have a biological advantage so great that their performances completely dominate the women. 

Right and who is saying that isn't the case? 

 

There is incredibly small representation from transgender athletes in professional or elite sport so there is a very small sample size to prove or disprove sporting advantages post transition. In many sports there very well may be and I genuinely don't know what the answer is. 

 

We're certainly not seeing the sporting domination that you are so terrified of. 

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Right and who is saying that isn't the case? 

 

There is incredibly small representation from transgender athletes in professional or elite sport so there is a very small sample size to prove or disprove sporting advantages post transition. In many sports there very well may be and I genuinely don't know what the answer is. 

 

We're certainly not seeing the sporting domination that you are so terrified of. 

 

 

 

 

Have a look back a few pages. It’s all there. 
 

What leads you to think there haven’t been studies to prove that the advantage remains? Genuine question 

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12 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Right and who is saying that isn't the case? 

 

There is incredibly small representation from transgender athletes in professional or elite sport so there is a very small sample size to prove or disprove sporting advantages post transition. In many sports there very well may be and I genuinely don't know what the answer is. 

 

We're certainly not seeing the sporting domination that you are so terrified of. 

 

 

 

 

The other aspect for me is the implied suggestion that, now it’s been proven possible to enter the olympics, men who have hitherto fallen just short of their sporting dreams are going to decide to live their life as a woman, to a sufficient degree that they can enter as a trans athlete, to get that longed for Olympic medal.

 

forgot the fact that most sports don’t even have openly gay men competing, these otherwise heterosexual, masculine men, at the peak of their physical prowess, will say “I’ll be wearing a frock from now on and you can call me gloria” to take advantage of their competitive advantage over born women.

 

it’s ludicrous.

 

if enough trans athletes emerge that this becomes a widespread issue genuinely worthy of concern, is say that’s a bloody good thing, as it means enough people are both 1) being able to live their life how they want without persecution, and 2) excelling at sports at the same time.

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10 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

The other aspect for me is the implied suggestion that, now it’s been proven possible to enter the olympics, men who have hitherto fallen just short of their sporting dreams are going to decide to live their life as a woman, to a sufficient degree that they can enter as a trans athlete, to get that longed for Olympic medal.

 

forgot the fact that most sports don’t even have openly gay men competing, these otherwise heterosexual, masculine men, at the peak of their physical prowess, will say “I’ll be wearing a frock from now on and you can call me gloria” to take advantage of their competitive advantage over born women.

 

it’s ludicrous.

 

if enough trans athletes emerge that this becomes a widespread issue genuinely worthy of concern, is say that’s a bloody good thing, as it means enough people are both 1) being able to live their life how they want without persecution, and 2) excelling at sports at the same time.

Have a look at girls sports in the US.  Average boys become elite girls.  
 

You are describing the end of women’s sports as a good thing. Weird. 
 

Would you agree with say; 

 

mens - open to anyone as it is now, but we’ve never seen a woman compete as, well, they wouldn’t be able to compete

 

Open - as it says, anyone can enter. Men, women, TM, TW

 

Women - only women

 

Edit: men and women take drugs that could kill them to gain an advantage.  Such a leap? 

 

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Just now, Rico1304 said:

Have a look back a few pages. It’s all there. 
 

What leads you to think there haven’t been studies to prove that the advantage remains? Genuine question 

I'm sure there have been studies, I saw an article on the BBC recently about it arguing both sides. I am saying that evidence of transgender athletes competing in elite sport is so incredibly small to prove any studies either way. How can anything be proven until it is actually happening? 

 

You are right to imply I haven't read up much on the subject. It's just not simple or black and white in my view as morality has its place in the argument as does science. From what you've said the IOC will be tougher on restrictions in the future. 

 

I think the trans community could do with some representation in media, sport and culture so that fear is conquered and attitudes change. The search history option on this website will show I've made some regrettable comments in the past on this subject, hopefully some outdated attitudes on dysphoria will change in time just like mine have started to. 

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2 minutes ago, Remmie said:

I'm sure there have been studies, I saw an article on the BBC recently about it arguing both sides. I am saying that evidence of transgender athletes competing in elite sport is so incredibly small to prove any studies either way. How can anything be proven until it is actually happening? 

 

You are right to imply I haven't read up much on the subject. It's just not simple or black and white in my view as morality has its place in the argument as does science. From what you've said the IOC will be tougher on restrictions in the future. 

 

I think the trans community could do with some representation in media, sport and culture so that fear is conquered and attitudes change. The search history option on this website will show I've made some regrettable comments in the past on this subject, hopefully some outdated attitudes on dysphoria will change in time just like mine have started to. 

It is a clash of rights, completely agree. But why should women move over?  That’s the bit I can’t seem to get across. TW undoubtedly face hardship, all the TW I’ve known haven’t had it easy.  But that doesn’t mean women should lose rights to accommodate them. 

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This discussion should start with Semenya - she is the pinnacle case. She tried to undergo therapy to bring her testosterone levels down to admissible and her performances were no longer world class.

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20 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

This discussion should start with Semenya - she is the pinnacle case. She tried to undergo therapy to bring her testosterone levels down to admissible and her performances were no longer world class.

But she’s not trans.  She’s DSD. 

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16 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

The "rules" have nothing to do with gender - only testosterone level.

Well that’s not that case.  The testosterone levels for DSD athletes vary by event and they are first ‘noticed’ due to testing.  Hence the medal in the 200m being a controversial today.  They don’t for TW and the limits are much higher.  
 

Edit: although I agree with what I think is your point that it’s the overall impact of T over time that are relevant rather than current levels. 
 

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4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Well that’s not that case.  The testosterone levels for DSD athletes vary by event and they are first ‘noticed’ due to testing.  Hence the medal in the 200m being a controversial today.  They don’t for TW and the limits are much higher.  
 

The testosterone levels for the athletes do not vary at all - they are what they are. The levels allowed in certain events differ.

 

Hubbard has qualified for a number of events by having less than the limit for testosterone - that is why she got in. It has nothing to do with trans-gender or DSD. (She is considered DSD I believe.)

 

Semenya has a long record of trying to get "under" the limit and having her performance drop - so she went to court to fight the T level, not the rule.

 

These sprinters fell into above mentioned exception, which is why they couldn't compete in the 400.

The WA is actively looking to close that loophole.

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11 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

The "rules" have nothing to do with gender - only testosterone level.

Well that’s not that case.  The testosterone levels for DSD athletes vary by event and they are first ‘noticed’ due to testing.  Hence the medal in the 200m being a controversial today.  They don’t for TW and the limits are much higher.  
 

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4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Well that’s not that case.  The testosterone levels for DSD athletes vary by event and they are first ‘noticed’ due to testing.  Hence the medal in the 200m being a controversial today.  They don’t for TW and the limits are much higher.  
 

Everyone gets tested. Their individual testosterone is the same regardless of the event. The WA has only been able to enforce level limits on certain events. 10.0 is the limit for those events. The 200 does not have that ruling - which is why they could compete. The WA is activeley seeking to have that rule apply to all events.

 

Hubbard was/has been below those limits. 

 

The 2015 guidelines specify female transgender athletes can compete in the women's category if their total testosterone level is 10 nanomoles per liter in serum for at least one year before their first competition. Hubbard has been eligible to compete in the Olympics since the IOC released its guidelines.

 

 

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Don’t know what happened there.  
 

Anyway, DSD athletes have a variety of medical conditions and have to get below 5nm of T. Trans athletes have no medical conditions, and have to get below 10nm to compete.  That’s massively above the women’s average, doesn’t negate the impacts puberty and the benefits that brings. 

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13 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Don’t know what happened there.  
 

Anyway, DSD athletes have a variety of medical conditions and have to get below 5nm of T. Trans athletes have no medical conditions, and have to get below 10nm to compete.  That’s massively above the women’s average, doesn’t negate the impacts puberty and the benefits that brings. 

I think you are reading it wrong man -- everyone of the women from the last Olympic 800 has been barred this time around. From what I saw a 10 is the limit to compete for a DSD.

 

 

A World Athletics rule, which went into effect in 2019, caps athlete testosterone levels in women’s events from the 400m through the mile for athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD). World Athletics said that no female athletes would have a level above the cap — five nanomoles per liter — unless they had a DSD or a tumor.

 

Seems a little ambiguous but the women in the sprints both "had a DSD."

 

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