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Transgender stuff - what's going on?


Gym Beglin
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15 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

This is the worry: there are too many anti-trans bigots in Government (as evidenced by the refusal to implement a full "conversion therapy" ban) for this to be resolved in a decent way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346

 

IMG_20220628_132916.jpg

Are you fucking kidding me? The government and loads of organisations have been completely captured by Stonewall.  It’s only now they are realising they were conned.  

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26 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

You posted that in response to me attacking not you, but that donkey-shart that you call an "argument".

 

Saying that "everyone with a cock is a potential rapist" is as true as saying that everyone with hands is a potential strangler.  Technically, they are equipped for it; but that doesn't mean that they're all about to start attacking people.

 

Rape support centres are for victims of rape. Some centres are trans-inclusive because (get this!) trans women can be rape victims, too.

 

The woman suing this particular support centre didn't know for sure whether her fellow rape survivor is trans.  She has even less idea of what that person has in their underwear because - and this is important - it's none of her fucking business.

 

There may well be a case for trans-exclusionary spaces for survivors of sexual violence, but the overriding concern has to be to ensure that all rape victims have access to some sort of support; any additional cis-women-only services would have to be subject to demand and resources.

They would be women only.  That’s all. Even someone who’s been raped must follow your rules.   It’s truly staggering.  

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37 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I know I'm going to regret engaging with you on this thread, but...

 

@Rico1304 what (if any) services do you think should be available for trans women who have been raped?

Whatever is available for women should be available for trans women.   Women should also have the option for single sex provision and not be called bigots for requesting it.  
 

Women are already being put off using rape crisis centres in Scotland as they aren’t single sex.    

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14 minutes ago, Skidfingers McGonical said:

Has anyone else on here denied that trans-women victims of rape cannot be classed as victims and don’t deserve the same treatment as a woman? 
 

 

I think Rico & Stronts support the "separate but equal" approach.

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1 minute ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I think Rico & Stronts support the "separate but equal" approach.

That’s not what I said at all. It’s written just up there.  Equal and separate if required.  Without some cunt on the internet calling them a bigot. 

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1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

That’s not what I said at all. It’s written just up there.  Equal and separate if required.  Without some cunt on the internet calling them a bigot. 

Does equal treatment include nobody making assumptions about what's in your undies or accusing you of being a "potential rapist"?

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1 minute ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Does equal treatment include nobody making assumptions about what's in your undies or accusing you of being a "potential rapist"?

I think that those running a rape crisis centre wouldn’t put a woman in the situation where she’s with a male therapist, or has men in the group if it was requested.  Although the man running the Edinburgh rape crisis centre thinks the women should just suck it up. Imagine thinking that?  
 

Luckily humans are fucking great at telling men from women, and as the vast majority have no surgery I don’t think it’d be an issue.  
 

Do you think a woman who’s just been raped should be able to insist on a woman doctor, therapist etc? Like most things in this argument it’s binary.  

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Gotta say I feel for the woman making the claim. This is an incredibly complex issue and it does seem female-born women's rights are becoming collateral damage on the road to progress and inclusivity.

 

This is a vulnerable person – obviously because of the nature of the group she's attending – who has the right to a safe space without being labelled a bigot. 

 

I don't know what the right answer is. 

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4 minutes ago, Chris said:

it does seem female-born women's rights are becoming collateral damage on the road to progress and inclusivity.

They are not. As is often pointed out, human rights are not pie: giving one person more doesn't mean that someone else gets less.  It only seems that way because noisemakers like to portray it that way.

 

It should be fairly obvious that services should not exclude people who need them. If there is also a requirement for services specifically for women who have a legitimate reason for not being able to share services with trans women, those services should also be available.  If they're not, it's because people voted Tory.

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9 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

They are not. As is often pointed out, human rights are not pie: giving one person more doesn't mean that someone else gets less.  It only seems that way because noisemakers like to portray it that way.

 

It should be fairly obvious that services should not exclude people who need them. If there is also a requirement for services specifically for women who have a legitimate reason for not being able to share services with trans women, those services should also be available.  If they're not, it's because people voted Tory.

 

You have this incredible knack of isolating things people say, so you can reply specifically to that, rather than treating a post as a whole, bypassing any nuance. 

 

Essentially, she does get fewer rights. Because the space that was safe that helped her cope has now become a trigger for the trauma. She retains the right to go, of course, but actually can't.

 

I appreciate the charity has said their trans inclusive policy was established and known, but if an alternative service is not available to her then it's an issue – especially when I'm not sure whether it's even legal under equalities law to exclude transpeople from such groups. Do you know whether it is or not? 

 

As I said, I'm not advocating for any particular position. I'm supportive of the trans community, but it's an example of how difficult a line it is to walk. 

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55 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I think that those running a rape crisis centre wouldn’t put a woman in the situation where she’s with a male therapist, or has men in the group if it was requested.  Although the man running the Edinburgh rape crisis centre thinks the women should just suck it up. Imagine thinking that?  
 

Luckily humans are fucking great at telling men from women, and as the vast majority have no surgery I don’t think it’d be an issue.  
 

Do you think a woman who’s just been raped should be able to insist on a woman doctor, therapist etc? Like most things in this argument it’s binary.  

Edinburgh Rape Centre has been trans inclusive since 2008, far earlier than the CEO's appointment. Where has she been quoted telling people to "suck it up"?

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1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

That’s not what I said at all. It’s written just up there.  Equal and separate if required.  Without some cunt on the internet calling them a bigot. 

Just to check, Fern Riddell's the "cunt" in this scenario, right?

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2 hours ago, Pidge said:

Edinburgh Rape Centre has been trans inclusive since 2008, far earlier than the CEO's appointment. Where has she been quoted telling people to "suck it up"?

Here you go. Happy to help.  
 

But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma.

“But please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices.

“If you have to reframe your trauma, I think it is important as part of that reframing, having a more positive relationship with it, where it becomes a story that empowers you and allows you to go and do other more beautiful things with your life, you also have to reframe your relationship with prejudice.

“Otherwise, you can’t realy, in my view, recover from trauma and I think that’s a very important message that I am often discussing with my colleagues at Edinburgh Rape Crisis.

“Because you know, to me, therapy is political, and it isn’t always seen as that.”

 

He is a man, took a job advertised for a woman and then preferred another man, over a woman, on the board.  

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She is a transwoman, with a long, proven track record in working in women's protection services. Qualified for her role.

 

She also isn't talking just about anti-trans prejudice, but specifically highlights ethnic prejudice as well.

 

"And we come as survivors with experiences that often feel to the outside world as holding prejudice. So we might have fear of men of a certain ethnicity, we might have fear of trans people, and it could be linked to an experience of trauma. I think it is, it is okay to hold those things as long as you are willing to acknowledge that, in support, we will accept that."

 

Immediately prior to your quote. It's a passage about working to rebuild trust with society, not re-education.

 

And it most definitely is not just saying "suck it up".

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18 minutes ago, Pidge said:

She is a transwoman, with a long, proven track record in working in women's protection services. Qualified for her role.

 

She also isn't talking just about anti-trans prejudice, but specifically highlights ethnic prejudice as well.

 

"And we come as survivors with experiences that often feel to the outside world as holding prejudice. So we might have fear of men of a certain ethnicity, we might have fear of trans people, and it could be linked to an experience of trauma. I think it is, it is okay to hold those things as long as you are willing to acknowledge that, in support, we will accept that."

 

Immediately prior to your quote. It's a passage about working to rebuild trust with society, not re-education.

 

And it most definitely is not just saying "suck it up".

Qualified for the role apart from 1 minor point.  No GRC, therefore legally a man.  Which is what I said.  
 

You can try and spin it any way you’d like. Scottish women aren’t accessing those services because of his ideology.  That’s fucking obscene and sits firmly with him.  
 

He actually tries to say that not wanting a man near them.is akin to racism.  Which didn’t strike you as a bit fucking weird?  

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On 23/12/2020 at 08:58, Rico1304 said:

Did you read that article?  The decision on kids access to PB was taken this month, by 3 senior judges.  So before that, it was easier.  The courts asked GIDS to provide the evidence that the treatment worked - they wouldn’t. It’s experimental. 
 

The article also references GenderGP. That’s an organisation set up by a GP who was struck off in the U.K. for prescribing drugs illegally and then fled to Thailand. 
 

so, you’re taking bollocks. 

Husband has now been struck off and the wife today found unfit for practice as causing unwarranted risk of harm to patients.  

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18 hours ago, Strontium said:

I'd say it's probably because they are men.

 

There are animals that can change sex, and humans aren't one of them.

I missed this. Male and Female are sexes, not men and women (according to official definitions from the government). But I wouldn't say it's because they are a man, I'd say it's because they're trans and he doesn't like it. As for changing sex, well, agreed though it does get complicated - or at least confused - because of possible inconsistencies in mammals between sex phenotype (I mean, sex determination and maintenance and the role of DMRT1 and FOXL2 is interesting reading for anybody who actually is interested beyond calling rape victims 'men' without knowing if they're trans or not) and sex chromosomes, but isn't relevant to this. It's not even about sex. 

 

18 hours ago, Strontium said:

Now in most circumstances, out of politeness, people are happy to pretend that those men are women. But that pretence stops when it actively impinges on the rights of real women. The real women who have had to fight for thousands of years simply to get to this point in history where their rights are even in the same ballpark as men's rights.

Except he doesn't 'pretend' in 'most circumstances', he wants to call trans-women 'men' because he has an issue with trans-women. He doesn't acknowledge obvious differences between sex and gender, and trying to conflate those two things is a bit of a red flag. He wants to reduce it all to a knuckle-dragging level where he can call people 'men'. As if it's some sign of his true enlightenment. It's not, it's rooted in prejudice. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Fixed.

I think you were right. Engaging isn’t smart on this one. He has been radicalised. Either that or he genuinely thinks the best way to show his empathy for women is to relentlessly post Twitter articles and called trans women ‘men’ on a football forum. Either way, I don’t think there’s any reasoning that will get him to change his behaviour.

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