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Transgender stuff - what's going on?


Gym Beglin
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Good interview in the Times with Kathleen Stock, the Sussex uni lecturer being sent death threats for saying biology is immutable. This is the tactic of fascists, threatening violence against women for having opposing ideas. This is happening in our country today. We should all be calling out the people making these threats for what they are, mysognist fascists. 

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1 hour ago, Captain Willard said:

Good interview in the Times with Kathleen Stock, the Sussex uni lecturer being sent death threats for saying biology is immutable. This is the tactic of fascists, threatening violence against women for having opposing ideas. This is happening in our country today. We should all be calling out the people making these threats for what they are, mysognist fascists. 

As long as we equally call out the cunts making death threats to trans people and trans rights campaigners.

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1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

As long as we equally call out the cunts making death threats to trans people and trans rights campaigners.

This is just ‘yes but what about’ politics. In this thread we have seen people trying to deny the legitimacy of an elected MO Rosie Duffield claims of being threatened and now we have a female academic being scared to go to work and the response is ‘yes but what about’ . Do you not see this is the tactics of fascism ? threaten female elected politicians and academics with violence into being silent. If you can show me a report of a trans politician or academic who is scared to go to work because of death threats from women then I’ll accept you have a point. I’ve no issue with trans rights, I do have an issue with female voices being silenced by aggressive men becuase they dare to have different opinions. At the end of the day you either believe in free speech and democracy for women or you side with the people who don’t. Don’t forget when Starmer was questioned about Duffield his response was “she shouldn’t have said it” 

 

 

 

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On 10/10/2021 at 15:42, Captain Willard said:

This is just ‘yes but what about’ politics. In this thread we have seen people trying to deny the legitimacy of an elected MO Rosie Duffield claims of being threatened and now we have a female academic being scared to go to work and the response is ‘yes but what about’ . Do you not see this is the tactics of fascism ? threaten female elected politicians and academics with violence into being silent. If you can show me a report of a trans politician or academic who is scared to go to work because of death threats from women then I’ll accept you have a point. I’ve no issue with trans rights, I do have an issue with female voices being silenced by aggressive men becuase they dare to have different opinions. At the end of the day you either believe in free speech and democracy for women or you side with the people who don’t. Don’t forget when Starmer was questioned about Duffield his response was “she shouldn’t have said it” 

Who has been trying to delegitimise Duffield's experience? I've done the opposite: I've told it as she tells it.

 

And it's not whataboutery to point out the hypocrisy of anyone getting their knickers in a twist about the appalling behaviour from people on one side of an argument while ignoring the exact same behaviour of people on the other side.

 

Consistency, kids.

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On 10/10/2021 at 15:42, Captain Willard said:

If you can show me a report of a trans politician or academic who is scared to go to work because of death threats from women then I’ll accept you have a point. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370.amp 

 

Violence and threats of violence against trans people are far more common than you seem to acknowledge.

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On 10/10/2021 at 13:22, Captain Willard said:

Good interview in the Times with Kathleen Stock, the Sussex uni lecturer being sent death threats for saying biology is immutable. This is the tactic of fascists, threatening violence against women for having opposing ideas. This is happening in our country today. We should all be calling out the people making these threats for what they are, mysognist fascists. 

Can you post screenshots of the interview, please. (cba paying for a Times article.)

 

Here's an article about it (comparing the campaign against Stock to anti-vaxxers hounding Jeremy Vine). 

https://www.thearticle.com/when-protest-morphs-into-persecution-kathleen-stock-and-jeremy-vine

 

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11 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I got as far as the opening lines - "the cancellation of women" "the erosion of the concept of women" - and I bailed out. Recognising the humanity and the rights of trans people does not "erode the concept of women" any more than recognising same-sex marriage erodes the concept of marriage between a man and a woman. 

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19 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I got as far as the opening lines - "the cancellation of women" "the erosion of the concept of women" - and I bailed out. Recognising the humanity and the rights of trans people does not "erode the concept of women" any more than recognising same-sex marriage erodes the concept of marriage between a man and a woman. 

What a fucking mard arse.  Were  you triggered?  
 

And that bollocks afterwards is just nonsense. No one is trying to erase trans people - they just aren’t women.  You’ve painted yourself into a ridiculous corner.  

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28 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I got as far as the opening lines - "the cancellation of women" "the erosion of the concept of women" - and I bailed out. Recognising the humanity and the rights of trans people does not "erode the concept of women" any more than recognising same-sex marriage erodes the concept of marriage between a man and a woman. 

AoT

You seem like a reasonable intelligent  guy, please can you explain how you perceive the difference between the subjective self identification of gender compared to race. This is a genuine question which I can’t seem to find anyone to answer. 

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7 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

AoT

You seem like a reasonable intelligent  guy, please can you explain how you perceive the difference between the subjective self identification of gender compared to race. This is a genuine question which I can’t seem to find anyone to answer. 

It’s not getting an answer because it’s absolutely a false equivalency. 
 

(for a second I’d like to ask that we exclude from thinking anybody who is purposefully using self id for gender as a weird power play, a kink, or simply to piss people off, and suggest we pretend they don’t exist and only those trans people that are trans because they feel they are not in the right body and that they ought to have been born the opposite sex.)

 

My view of self ID for those people is about saying they have a right to live their life as the person they feel they are, rather than as the person they were born as; in simple terms.

 

that’s accepting that a born male wishes to live as a woman, and that they want that now before being in a position to be legally classed as a woman.

 

There are known differences in what it feels like to be a man or a woman, and so it can be recognised that their “feeling” like a woman is a genuine lived experience.

 

So parking that, what’s the race alternative? There are physical differences between people of different races, and there are cultural differences between races of people if they have been raised within only that race of people, but are there differences that make a person “feel” a race or more specifically a skin colour that they are not?

 

A white person could feel culturally more connected with “black” culture, or any alternative way round, but that wouldn’t make the person that race. It may mean they start to exhibit traits more common to that race, or dress a certain way, but race is not the same as culture or dress.

 

if there were known differences - not linked to culture or body type, but linked to how it feels to be a particular race - or conversely if being a woman was not linked to known differences other than culture and dress, then there would be equivalency.

 

but as it is, you’re putting two things beside one another than can’t be compared evenly. Quite possibly knowingly.

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29 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

What a fucking mard arse.  Were  you triggered?  
 

And that bollocks afterwards is just nonsense. No one is trying to erase trans people - they just aren’t women.  You’ve painted yourself into a ridiculous corner.  

I never said that anyone was trying to erase trans people; please try not to make shit up.

 

Whatever"triggered" is supposed to mean, I don't think I was that. I just chose not to waste time on an opinion piece that opens with obvious nonsense, for the same reason I choose to walk past the shouters in Church Street telling me to turn to Jesus or be damned; I can see enough that it's hugely unlikely that they've got anything interesting, original or sensible to say, so I don't waste my time.

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37 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

What a fucking mard arse.  Were  you triggered?  
 

And that bollocks afterwards is just nonsense. No one is trying to erase trans people - they just aren’t women.  You’ve painted yourself into a ridiculous corner.  

He didn’t mention erasing trans people, he said nobody is erasing women. You’ve misread his response and then used it tye other way around yourself.

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21 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

AoT

You seem like a reasonable intelligent  guy, please can you explain how you perceive the difference between the subjective self identification of gender compared to race. This is a genuine question which I can’t seem to find anyone to answer. 

I've never put that much thought into how people identify as a certain race, but (as I think I've pointed out before) the fundamental difference between biological sex and race is that sex exists as a scientific fact while race is entirely a social construct.

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Which do you think are closer:

 

a black man and a white mans experiences of the world?

 

a man and a woman’s experiences of the world?

 

And why should women be forced to play along in someone else’s ‘fantasy’?  I can’t think of another time we are expected to deny the evidence of our eyes and ears just to placate someone else.  

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1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

Which do you think are closer:

 

a black man and a white mans experiences of the world?

 

a man and a woman’s experiences of the world?

 

And why should women be forced to play along in someone else’s ‘fantasy’?  I can’t think of another time we are expected to deny the evidence of our eyes and ears just to placate someone else.  

And there he goes, shouting in the street about damnation or salvation.

 

I think I'll just walk past.

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1 hour ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

It’s not getting an answer because it’s absolutely a false equivalency. 
 

(for a second I’d like to ask that we exclude from thinking anybody who is purposefully using self id for gender as a weird power play, a kink, or simply to piss people off, and suggest we pretend they don’t exist and only those trans people that are trans because they feel they are not in the right body and that they ought to have been born the opposite sex.)

 

My view of self ID for those people is about saying they have a right to live their life as the person they feel they are, rather than as the person they were born as; in simple terms.

 

that’s accepting that a born male wishes to live as a woman, and that they want that now before being in a position to be legally classed as a woman.

 

There are known differences in what it feels like to be a man or a woman, and so it can be recognised that their “feeling” like a woman is a genuine lived experience.

 

So parking that, what’s the race alternative? There are physical differences between people of different races, and there are cultural differences between races of people if they have been raised within only that race of people, but are there differences that make a person “feel” a race or more specifically a skin colour that they are not?

 

A white person could feel culturally more connected with “black” culture, or any alternative way round, but that wouldn’t make the person that race. It may mean they start to exhibit traits more common to that race, or dress a certain way, but race is not the same as culture or dress.

 

if there were known differences - not linked to culture or body type, but linked to how it feels to be a particular race - or conversely if being a woman was not linked to known differences other than culture and dress, then there would be equivalency.

 

but as it is, you’re putting two things beside one another than can’t be compared evenly. Quite possibly knowingly.

Sorry I’m not following this. You say elsewhere that race is entirely a social construct so why can’t I identify as a black women if I feel like one ? Your argument seems to assume that I can’t feel like a different race but I can feel like a women. This makes it entirely a subjective call so if I feel like a black women then ergo I am one. Is that right ? 

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26 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

Sorry I’m not following this. You say elsewhere that race is entirely a social construct so why can’t I identify as a black women if I feel like one ? Your argument seems to assume that I can’t feel like a different race but I can feel like a women. This makes it entirely a subjective call so if I feel like a black women then ergo I am one. Is that right ? 

Sorry I confused you with AoT, he said race was a social construct not you. Anyway my question still stands, if genuinely in my heart of hearts I feel like a black women an I one ? 

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51 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I can’t think of another time we are expected to deny the evidence of our eyes and ears just to placate someone else.  

If a MTF transgender person came to your house for dinner would you refer to that person - in their presence - as 'he'?

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44 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

Sorry I’m not following this. You say elsewhere that race is entirely a social construct so why can’t I identify as a black women if I feel like one ? Your argument seems to assume that I can’t feel like a different race but I can feel like a women. This makes it entirely a subjective call so if I feel like a black women then ergo I am one. Is that right ? 

You’re doing that thing you (and Rico) do of putting words from your head into my mouth (or keyboard).

 

I've never said anything of the sort, and this predictably disingenuous response is actually the reason you don’t get a reply to your nonsense question.

 

if you can legitimately explain what it is to “feel” a race, then fill your boots. You can’t though, can you?

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