Transgender stuff - what's going on?

[Paulie Dangerously]

Jesus Christ. I've just looked into this Chris Chan character. Certainly not one to use an example to show stable transgender people are 

[CapeRed]

1 hour ago, Paulie Dangerously said:

Sorry for the Mail link. Here's something I'm pretty sure was under the "won't happen" category. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9859653/amp/Trans-YouTuber-Chris-Chan-39-filed-female-police-housed-women-inmates.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

Trans YouTuber Chris Chan, 39, is listed as female in police report and will be jailed with women inmates despite 'arrest for raping her dementia sufferer mother, 79' 

 

 

Thats a bloke, no ands ifs or buts, fuckin pervert

[Paulie Dangerously]

4 hours ago, dockers_strike said:

The actual fuck!?! What's wrong with the human species?! Fuck me, Im lost for words.

 

3 hours ago, CapeRed said:

Thats a bloke, no ands ifs or buts, fuckin pervert

She's stunning and brave you bigots*

 

 

 

*it's a fucking shocker 

[Remmie]

Not sure who has said it will never happen but the maths say it's highly probable a trans woman will rape again in the future. Rare maybe, I'd certainly hope so. I saw an article saying 1 in 200 Americans consider themselves transgender. That would mean that there are more than 1 million trans people in the States alone and take 1 million people from anywhere and you will find plenty of rapists. 

 

So what to do with them? I really, really don't know. I am very ignorant on the subject. Do you force trans women into a male prison even for a relatively low level crime like burglary? How about protecting them? And trans men? Prison is a hard subject regardless, congregating violent and drug addicted people in a single place is riddled with problems to start with. 

 

The answer is certainly not dehumanising an entire community for the actions of 1 person. 

 

[Remmie]

If it's about protecting potential rape victims, then sending a rapist to a women's prison is the safer thing to do as their are more male rape victims than female*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I'll admit this stat is dubious, I heard it somewhere online and haven't bothered looking it up to corroborate it. 

[Rico1304]

8 hours ago, Remmie said:

If it's about protecting potential rape victims, then sending a rapist to a women's prison is the safer thing to do as their are more male rape victims than female*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I'll admit this stat is dubious, I heard it somewhere online and haven't bothered looking it up to corroborate it. 

It’s safer for the rapist. It isn’t safer for the women is it?  
 

For me you either make men’s prisons safer, after all it’s ALWAYS the men doing the raping.  Or you have separate prisons for TW.  
 

There’s a great discussion a few pages back where posters argue that women prison officers forced to search TW should just stop moaning and get on with it.  

[Captain Howdy]

According to outraged Owen transphobia is a “gateway drug” to hard right politics. I have genuinely run out of words to describe the sheer size of dickhead this fella is.

[Rico1304]

There’s a row going on in Scotland the person who runs a Rape Crisis Centre in Edinburgh has said that ‘even bigots get raped’ and anyone who objects to having a trans rape counsellor will be ‘educated’ to accept it.  I mean, that’s normal right?  
 

Here’s a response. 
 

 

 

[Rico1304]

5 yr old kids absolutely know best. 
 

 

[Bob]

1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

5 yr old kids absolutely know best. 
 

 

Have you read it? There’s no mention of 5 year old children knowing best as far as I can see in the opening sections at least.

 

im gonna copy and paste some parts of the introduction... given this, what really is the problem here?

 

 

Status of the guidance 

This guidance is non-statutory and is designed to help education authority, grant-aided and independent schools to make decisions effectively but cannot be prescriptive about what is required in individual circumstances. Education authority, grant-aided and independent schools are responsible for ensuring that their policies, practices and information take full account of the legal requirements of the relevant legislation. The guidance includes quotes and reflections from young people and school staff on their experiences; and examples of good practice and scenarios to illustrate some of the processes and considerations involved in applying the main legislative provisions. This guidance does not interpret the legislation since this is a matter for the courts. It is for education authorities and managers of grant-aided and independent schools to take their own legal advice on such matters, as appropriate.

This guidance has been developed from Supporting Transgender Young People which was developed and published by LGBT Youth Scotland in 2017. The guidance is therefore based on the experiences of transgender young people and good practice approaches suggested by school staff, and a wide range of professionals with expertise in the field of education and human rights. 

If someone needs more information or support for a young person, they can speak to their school management team, the education authority or other agencies and partners. 

Context

This guidance has been developed at a time when there is significant public discussion about the rights of transgender people, including young people. These discussions include debate about the impact of meeting transgender people's needs and the potential impact for women and girls. 

We recognise that there are men who seek to abuse women and we want women to be safe from that violence. We have taken action to change the law to protect women from such abuse. This is a global issue and not a new issue for Scotland or indeed the UK. It is not the fault of trans people. It is the fault of the abusive men. Which is why we will continue to address violence against women and girls through our Equally Safe strategy which takes a gendered approach.

As indicated in the Ministerial foreword, gender-based violence is a recognised concern within schools which the Scottish Government is committed to addressing. This guidance also recognises those matters, within the context of meeting all young people's needs, but due to the forthcoming specific work, does not address those issues in significant detail.

Language used[5]

The guidance uses the terms 'transgender' and 'trans' as umbrella terms[6] for those whose gender identity differs in some way from the sex assigned at birth. Young people and their families may prefer to use other terms.

The term 'gender reassignment' is the protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 which relates to transgender people. Under the Act a young person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment[7] if they propose to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone any part of a process for the purpose of reassigning their sex. This is a personal process, rather than a medical process, for example the young person may propose to change their name and pronouns. More information can be found in the legislation section on page 57. There is more about language on page 48.

Why is this guidance needed?

In terms of experiences of young people, research[8] carried out with around 700 lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) young people in Scotland showed that:

• 82% of transgender young people had experienced bullying in school on the grounds of being LGB or T 
• 68% of trans young people who had experienced bullying said that it negatively affected their educational attainment
• Only 24% of LGBT young people would feel confident reporting transphobia in school
• 27% of trans young people left education as a result of homophobia, biphobia or transphobia[9] in the learning environment 

Throughout the survey responses trans young people highlighted examples of the discrimination they faced: 

"I was often called a 'tranny' or 'dyke' and told to kill myself by numerous pupils throughout the school". – Trans Young Person

"I was told I was disgusting and in PE I was forced to change in a disused shower cubicle in case I 'stared at' any of the girls."- Trans Young Person

"I was deliberately misgendered and excluded from activities". – Trans Young Person

The same study[10] found that 

• 63% of transgender young people experienced suicidal thoughts or behaviours 
• 59% of transgender young people had self-harmed, and that
• 83% of transgender young people who had experienced mental health problems, had been bullied at school

 

 

 

[Rico1304]

Here you go.  And plenty of click through links to the numbers they’ve quoted too.  
 

https://twitter.com/labwomendec/status/1426119584357265410?s=21

[Bob]

55 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Here you go.  And plenty of click through links to the numbers they’ve quoted too.  
 

https://twitter.com/labwomendec/status/1426119584357265410?s=21

I’ve not read all of the spin off threads within that thread, but, i will as I reckon I need to better understand some of this than I do right now, but from what I’ve read just now that is a list of points being made by groups that don’t accept that anything other than mate and female should exist.

 

they're not right, or wrong, just of strong opinion.

 

once upon a time, people held similarly strong opinion that being gay was unnatural.

 

obviously it’s a particularly difficult area to deal with when it concerns children, as they are owed a duty of care and immaturity can obviously affect feelings and the idea of blocking puberty etc is without doubt something that needs nuanced and considered discussion and debate etc, but to say (paraphrasing but only just) “no child is born in the wrong body, boys who like to play with dolls aren’t girls, and lesbian girls aren’t straight boys” is simply a point of view - it’s not fact, it’s not right vs someone else view being wrong. How can it be?

 

once upon a time those same sentiments were pushed towards gay people. I’ve friends who knew they were gay by the time they were 10 or 11 - and low and behold they still are. Being a child didn’t stop them from knowing how they felt.

[Rico1304]

6 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I’ve not read all of the spin off threads within that thread, but, i will as I reckon I need to better understand some of this than I do right now, but from what I’ve read just now that is a list of points being made by groups that don’t accept that anything other than mate and female should exist.

 

they're not right, or wrong, just of strong opinion.

 

once upon a time, people held similarly strong opinion that being gay was unnatural.

 

obviously it’s a particularly difficult area to deal with when it concerns children, as they are owed a duty of care and immaturity can obviously affect feelings and the idea of blocking puberty etc is without doubt something that needs nuanced and considered discussion and debate etc, but to say (paraphrasing but only just) “no child is born in the wrong body, boys who like to play with dolls aren’t girls, and lesbian girls aren’t straight boys” is simply a point of view - it’s not fact, it’s not right vs someone else view being wrong. How can it be?

 

once upon a time those same sentiments were pushed towards gay people. I’ve friends who knew they were gay by the time they were 10 or 11 - and low and behold they still are. Being a child didn’t stop them from knowing how they felt.

Conflating this and homosexuality makes no sense.  In fact, taking this ideology to its conclusion same sex attraction is erased.   
 

And I think you’ve managed to miss the point pretty spectacularly.  Most people just aren’t arsed if people want to live their lives as the opposite sex.  It’s when those people also want all the sex based rights too that it becomes an issue. 
 

If you don’t follow the mantra YWAW you are a bigot. It’s emperors new clothes.  You are being asked to deny reality.  

[Bob]

2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Conflating this and homosexuality makes no sense.  In fact, taking this ideology to its conclusion same sex attraction is erased.   

Only if you consider “it’s conclusion” is that all gay men feel they should be women, all gay women think they should be men, and all straight men and women would be attracted to both genetically born and trans versions of the opposite sex, which I think is quite the leap.

 

im not so much conflating the two issues either. I’m suggesting that groups told gay people they shouldn’t feel the way they feel for a very, very long time. Some still do. Those people were, or still are, wrong I reckon.

 

so I’m not sure why I’d just willingly back groups today that are essentially saying the same to transgender people, whether they’re 12 or 62.

[Rico1304]

6 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

Only if you consider “it’s conclusion” is that all gay men feel they should be women, all gay women think they should be men, and all straight men and women would be attracted to both genetically born and trans versions of the opposite sex, which I think is quite the leap.

 

im not so much conflating the two issues either. I’m suggesting that groups told gay people they shouldn’t feel the way they feel for a very, very long time. Some still do. Those people were, or still are, wrong I reckon.

 

so I’m not sure why I’d just willingly back groups today that are essentially saying the same to transgender people, whether they’re 12 or 62.

No, the aim is the removal of sex altogether. Look at ‘assigned at birth’ or removal of sex from medical literature.  It’s all there.  You don’t have to look far.  
 

Who is doing that?  No one I can see is saying they can’t feel how they want. It’s the assertion they are what they feel like that’s being pushed back on.  Do you think Pippa Bunce flits between a man and a woman several times a week.  Not that she/he feels that she does, that she ACTUALLY does.  Do you think Alex Drummand, a man who became a women who has not taken any hormones, had any surgery, proudly wears a beard is the right person to be teaching young girls what it means to be a lesbian?  Do you think women saying ‘what the fuck’ are the same as people who denied gay people rights?  Really? 

[Bob]

I don’t know who pippa bunce and Alex Drummond are, but I didnt see either name in the report you linked with a hysterical headline referencing 5 year olds.

 

I’ll take a look at what the assigned at birth thing is. I saw it mentioned in the thread you shared and didn’t get it, but I’ll look.

 

im not sure instinctively what the difference is between at conception or at birth is though - aren’t they the same thing?

 

I’m also not (and I think it’s fairly obvious I’m not, and fairly disingenuous to suggest I am) saying that women saying wtf are the same as people who denied gay people rights. I’m saying an organised group speaking against a group of society to say they don’t, or can’t, or shouldn’t exist - oversimplifying I know - are not automatically “right”, and maybe they can be compared to those that denied people rights that we (on the whole) now think we’re archaic arseholes.

[Captain Turdseye]

On 04/08/2021 at 17:39, Paulie Dangerously said:

Sorry for the Mail link. Here's something I'm pretty sure was under the "won't happen" category. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9859653/amp/Trans-YouTuber-Chris-Chan-39-filed-female-police-housed-women-inmates.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

Trans YouTuber Chris Chan, 39, is listed as female in police report and will be jailed with women inmates despite 'arrest for raping her dementia sufferer mother, 79' 

 

 

 

On 04/08/2021 at 18:42, dockers_strike said:

The actual fuck!?! What's wrong with the human species?! Fuck me, Im lost for words.

It’s true. ‘YouTuber’ is now an actual job title and they get paid loads. Sickening. 
 

On 07/08/2021 at 13:38, Captain Howdy said:

According to outraged Owen transphobia is a “gateway drug” to hard right politics. I have genuinely run out of words to describe the sheer size of dickhead this fella is.

 

How can you run out of words to describe an unknown fact? That’s one of the worst things I’ve ever read on this website. 
 

 

[Section_31]

I'm pretty sure none of this brouhaha and ballyhoo existed 10 years ago, transgender people did, but not the mentalism, quasi-science and words like TERF, unless they were underground - where they belong. 

[Strontium]

5 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Conflating this and homosexuality makes no sense.  In fact, taking this ideology to its conclusion same sex attraction is erased.

 

There's been a push lately to have same-sex attraction rebranded as same-gender attraction. Cue lots of angry gay men pointing out that partners having a dick is actually rather important to them, and of course being accused of bigotry for ruling out sex with "men with vaginas".

[Bob]

19 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

There's been a push lately to have same-sex attraction rebranded as same-gender attraction. Cue lots of angry gay men pointing out that partners having a dick is actually rather important to them, and of course being accused of bigotry for ruling out sex with "men with vaginas".

I read that, wondered where this push is happening and how I’ve missed it, and why I’ve not seen the gay men out on the streets up in arms.

 

well maybe that’s pushing it, but still, I thought I’d do a sense check and quickly googled the term ‘same gender attraction’ including a forced term search for “same gender” attraction, and then “same-gender” attraction.

 

every article in the first page of results had ‘same sex’ in its headlines with the exception of one... a post by the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, whose blood post begins “man created man and woman”

 

 

[Strontium]

1 minute ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I read that, wondered where this push is happening and how I’ve missed it

 

Most of this stuff starts on Twitter.

[Rico1304]

6 hours ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I don’t know who pippa bunce and Alex Drummond are, but I didnt see either name in the report you linked with a hysterical headline referencing 5 year olds.

 

I’ll take a look at what the assigned at birth thing is. I saw it mentioned in the thread you shared and didn’t get it, but I’ll look.

 

im not sure instinctively what the difference is between at conception or at birth is though - aren’t they the same thing?

 

I’m also not (and I think it’s fairly obvious I’m not, and fairly disingenuous to suggest I am) saying that women saying wtf are the same as people who denied gay people rights. I’m saying an organised group speaking against a group of society to say they don’t, or can’t, or shouldn’t exist - oversimplifying I know - are not automatically “right”, and maybe they can be compared to those that denied people rights that we (on the whole) now think we’re archaic arseholes.

Google them, then answer the questions.  
 

Who is saying they can’t exist? That’s the hysterical pushback that Trans rights activists screech when they don’t get their way.  Their existence is self evident, their right to women’s rights is not.  
 

The headline is not hysterical.  They are the guidelines are for schoolchildren, which start at 5.  
 

It’s very interesting you are taking the men’s, rather than women’s POV. 

[Bruce Spanner]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Most of this stuff starts on Twitter.

 

And a lot of it bought, created and paid for by far right disinformation groups who use the extreme arguments to further muddy the waters and keep people at each other's throats while they continue their destruction of liberties and opportunities. free of censure...

 

It's glorious shithousery.

[Rico1304]

9 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

And a lot of it bought, created and paid for by far right disinformation groups who use the extreme arguments to further muddy the waters and keep people at each other's throats while they continue their destruction of liberties and opportunities. free of censure...

 

It's glorious shithousery.

Is it fuck.  Unless you are suggesting that left wing feminism has suddenly been bought, unnoticed, by far right groups.  Which is fucking bollocks.  

[Rico1304]

17 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Google them, then answer the questions.  
 

Who is saying they can’t exist? That’s the hysterical pushback that Trans rights activists screech when they don’t get their way.  Their existence is self evident, their right to women’s rights is not.  
 

The headline is not hysterical.  They are the guidelines are for schoolchildren, which start at 5.  
 

It’s very interesting you are taking the men’s, rather than women’s POV. 

 No comment on the safeguarding issues - or are they far right?