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Transgender stuff - what's going on?


Gym Beglin
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2 minutes ago, Remmie said:

I'm sure there have been studies, I saw an article on the BBC recently about it arguing both sides. I am saying that evidence of transgender athletes competing in elite sport is so incredibly small to prove any studies either way. How can anything be proven until it is actually happening? 

 

You are right to imply I haven't read up much on the subject. It's just not simple or black and white in my view as morality has its place in the argument as does science. From what you've said the IOC will be tougher on restrictions in the future. 

 

I think the trans community could do with some representation in media, sport and culture so that fear is conquered and attitudes change. The search history option on this website will show I've made some regrettable comments in the past on this subject, hopefully some outdated attitudes on dysphoria will change in time just like mine have started to. 

It is a clash of rights, completely agree. But why should women move over?  That’s the bit I can’t seem to get across. TW undoubtedly face hardship, all the TW I’ve known haven’t had it easy.  But that doesn’t mean women should lose rights to accommodate them. 

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20 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

This discussion should start with Semenya - she is the pinnacle case. She tried to undergo therapy to bring her testosterone levels down to admissible and her performances were no longer world class.

But she’s not trans.  She’s DSD. 

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16 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

The "rules" have nothing to do with gender - only testosterone level.

Well that’s not that case.  The testosterone levels for DSD athletes vary by event and they are first ‘noticed’ due to testing.  Hence the medal in the 200m being a controversial today.  They don’t for TW and the limits are much higher.  
 

Edit: although I agree with what I think is your point that it’s the overall impact of T over time that are relevant rather than current levels. 
 

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4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Well that’s not that case.  The testosterone levels for DSD athletes vary by event and they are first ‘noticed’ due to testing.  Hence the medal in the 200m being a controversial today.  They don’t for TW and the limits are much higher.  
 

The testosterone levels for the athletes do not vary at all - they are what they are. The levels allowed in certain events differ.

 

Hubbard has qualified for a number of events by having less than the limit for testosterone - that is why she got in. It has nothing to do with trans-gender or DSD. (She is considered DSD I believe.)

 

Semenya has a long record of trying to get "under" the limit and having her performance drop - so she went to court to fight the T level, not the rule.

 

These sprinters fell into above mentioned exception, which is why they couldn't compete in the 400.

The WA is actively looking to close that loophole.

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11 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

The "rules" have nothing to do with gender - only testosterone level.

Well that’s not that case.  The testosterone levels for DSD athletes vary by event and they are first ‘noticed’ due to testing.  Hence the medal in the 200m being a controversial today.  They don’t for TW and the limits are much higher.  
 

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4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Well that’s not that case.  The testosterone levels for DSD athletes vary by event and they are first ‘noticed’ due to testing.  Hence the medal in the 200m being a controversial today.  They don’t for TW and the limits are much higher.  
 

Everyone gets tested. Their individual testosterone is the same regardless of the event. The WA has only been able to enforce level limits on certain events. 10.0 is the limit for those events. The 200 does not have that ruling - which is why they could compete. The WA is activeley seeking to have that rule apply to all events.

 

Hubbard was/has been below those limits. 

 

The 2015 guidelines specify female transgender athletes can compete in the women's category if their total testosterone level is 10 nanomoles per liter in serum for at least one year before their first competition. Hubbard has been eligible to compete in the Olympics since the IOC released its guidelines.

 

 

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Don’t know what happened there.  
 

Anyway, DSD athletes have a variety of medical conditions and have to get below 5nm of T. Trans athletes have no medical conditions, and have to get below 10nm to compete.  That’s massively above the women’s average, doesn’t negate the impacts puberty and the benefits that brings. 

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13 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Don’t know what happened there.  
 

Anyway, DSD athletes have a variety of medical conditions and have to get below 5nm of T. Trans athletes have no medical conditions, and have to get below 10nm to compete.  That’s massively above the women’s average, doesn’t negate the impacts puberty and the benefits that brings. 

I think you are reading it wrong man -- everyone of the women from the last Olympic 800 has been barred this time around. From what I saw a 10 is the limit to compete for a DSD.

 

 

A World Athletics rule, which went into effect in 2019, caps athlete testosterone levels in women’s events from the 400m through the mile for athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD). World Athletics said that no female athletes would have a level above the cap — five nanomoles per liter — unless they had a DSD or a tumor.

 

Seems a little ambiguous but the women in the sprints both "had a DSD."

 

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Here’s the rules for DSD; 

 

2. What do such athletes have to do to be eligible to compete in the female classification?

If they are competing below international level, they do not have to do anything. They can compete without restriction.

If they are competing at international level, in one of the affected events (track races between 400m and one mile in distance), they first have to lower the level of testosterone in their blood down to below 5 nmol/L (because that is the highest level that a healthy woman with ovaries would have) for a period of six months, and maintain it below that level while they continue to compete at international level in such events.

If they want to compete at international level in other events, again they can compete without restriction, i.e., without lowering their testosterone levels.

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For Trans;

 

Existing International Olympic Committee (IOC) guidelines on the eligibility of transgender athletes will remain in place for Tokyo 2020, amid an ongoing consultation process.

The IOC Executive Board received a report today on the consultation process regarding athletes’ inclusion on the basis of sex characteristics and gender identity.

The consultation is aimed at developing a framework and guidelines for athletes and International Federations, which would be based upon data research and the latest information in the scientific and human rights sectors.

A consensus statement published in 2015 approved the eligibility of those who transition from male to female in the female category under a series of conditions.

The athlete would have to have declared that their gender identity is female, with the declaration unable to be changed for a minimum of four years.

Athletes would also be required to demonstrate that their total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nanomoles per litre for at least 12 months prior to their first competition - with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition.

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1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

@Rico1304

Yea, looks like you are correct. I know I read that to be considered DSD your testosterone would need to be at least 8.

Anywhoos -- seems like the WA is ready to close the loophole asap.

 

I think we just had a discussion and came to an agreement.  GF rules have been broken so I must call you a cunt.  

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Anyone who has decided to change sex from a man to a woman should not be allowed to enter competitive female sport.  They can have their own category.  That just leaves an enormous grey area for the various other mixed or double sexy people. Who, let’s be honest, have got bigger things to worry about.  Sorted. 

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Sorry for the Mail link. Here's something I'm pretty sure was under the "won't happen" category. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9859653/amp/Trans-YouTuber-Chris-Chan-39-filed-female-police-housed-women-inmates.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

Trans YouTuber Chris Chan, 39, is listed as female in police report and will be jailed with women inmates despite 'arrest for raping her dementia sufferer mother, 79' 

 

 

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Maybe some people can throw women’s sport under the bus without much thought.  But this?  
 

People who believe the mantra TWAW always seem to fade away when this type of thing happens.  This is a women, she raped with her woman’s penis and should be in a women’s prison.  
 

 

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1 hour ago, Paulie Dangerously said:

Sorry for the Mail link. Here's something I'm pretty sure was under the "won't happen" category. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9859653/amp/Trans-YouTuber-Chris-Chan-39-filed-female-police-housed-women-inmates.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

Trans YouTuber Chris Chan, 39, is listed as female in police report and will be jailed with women inmates despite 'arrest for raping her dementia sufferer mother, 79' 

 

 

The actual fuck!?! What's wrong with the human species?! Fuck me, Im lost for words.

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