Transgender stuff - what's going on?

[Rico1304]

I could get it if you thought TW should be allowed to compete as you believe it’s the kind thing to do, but to deny the male advantage is just crazy.  

[Moo]

1 hour ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

You have no idea if the question was sincere or not, unless it was you that asked it. 
 

she prefaced her response by saying she’s been asked it many times before. Unless it was you doing the asking I’m happy to take her view on the matter over yours, to be honest.

 

I don’t believe most of the people asking the question genuinely give a fuck about whether it’s fair to have a transgender woman compete in women’s weightlifting. I honestly, genuinely don’t. 
 

I have no view on the matter myself, mainly because I’m not sufficiently informed to understand the discussion and also because I’m not sufficiently interested to become sufficiently informed.

While I wouldn't call that tick tock post useless, as everyone is entitled to their view and no doubt she has a good perspective, her credentials would appear to have no bearing on the view expressed.  To me she seems more concerned with who's asking the question than the legitimacy of the question itself.

 

It sounds like maybe your own lack of interest influences your suggestion that most people aren't sincere in asking the question.  If you ignore the right wing culture war there are plenty, plenty of people asking the question sincerely.  Not least women, and women in sports.
 

[A Red]

Imagine the scenes at the mens world nagging and pettiness finals when its discovered 1 of this years contestants used to be a woman

[Bob]

5 minutes ago, Moo said:

While I wouldn't call that tick tock post useless, as everyone is entitled to their view and no doubt she has a good perspective, her credentials would appear to have no bearing on the view expressed.  To me she seems more concerned with who's asking the question than the legitimacy of the question itself.

 

It sounds like maybe your own lack of interest influences your suggestion that most people aren't sincere in asking the question.  If you ignore the right wing culture war there are plenty, plenty of people asking the question sincerely.  Not least women, and women in sports.
 

Fair.

[Moo]

26 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I didn’t mention long arms. Phelps was a freak of nature who produced practically no lactic acid, giving him increased endurance and reduced is needed recovery time. 

(apologies in advance, and once again, if my terminology is off)

 

So how is this remotely anything like post pubescent (born) "males" competing against (born) females?

 

 

[Bob]

21 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

And all but 4 of his records have been  broken.  He had an advantage over his category.  Hubbard having 35 years of testosterone is simply something that no woman could ever have.  Unless they doped, but then they’d be done for cheating.  

I was going to mention Semenya - but probably shouldn’t.

 

look, I don’t have anywhere near enough knowledge to continue in this discussion and have already got more drawn in than I wanted to, so I’ll once again now out.

 

final word though on my way, and really the reason I’ve felt moved to say anything at all.

 

I find the language and tone you adopt on this thread unnecessarily antagonistic and it doesn’t sit right with me. As I say I don’t have the knowledge to challenge your words, but I don’t like the way you’re saying them. 

[Anubis]

On 30/06/2021 at 13:47, Jockey said:

 

This is a natural progression of be what you want. 

And everybody says he’s pretty fly for a white guy.

[Bob]

3 minutes ago, Moo said:

(apologies in advance, and once again, if my terminology is off)

 

So how is this remotely anything like post pubescent (born) "males" competing against (born) females?

 

 

It’s not really. Rico shade focus on the weightlifters age and saying that was where the focus should be, not on the fact she failed to get anywhere near challenging for a medal.

 

I pointed out others elsewhere who were achieving things at older ages.

 

he called one an outlier.

 

phelps was also an outlier, and outliers exist.

 

that was all.

 

it was a moving target kinda thing.

[Moo]

3 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I was going to mention Semenya - but probably shouldn’t.

 

look, I don’t have anywhere near enough knowledge to continue in this discussion and have already got more drawn in than I wanted to, so I’ll once again now out.

 

final word though on my way, and really the reason I’ve felt moved to say anything at all.

 

I find the language and tone you adopt on this thread unnecessarily antagonistic and it doesn’t sit right with me. As I say I don’t have the knowledge to challenge your words, but I don’t like the way you’re saying them. 

Also fair.

 

I was going to say, after my little discussion with the same poster yesterday about changing rooms and bathrooms, the general discourse on this subject is far too polarised.  There can't possibly be a satisfactory resolution when there's people on both "sides" so entrenched.

[Rico1304]

4 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I was going to mention Semenya - but probably shouldn’t.

 

look, I don’t have anywhere near enough knowledge to continue in this discussion and have already got more drawn in than I wanted to, so I’ll once again now out.

 

final word though on my way, and really the reason I’ve felt moved to say anything at all.

 

I find the language and tone you adopt on this thread unnecessarily antagonistic and it doesn’t sit right with me. As I say I don’t have the knowledge to challenge your words, but I don’t like the way you’re saying them. 

semenya has a dsd that means she’s benefitted from testosterone due to her undescended testes. 
 

Why do you feel the need to challenge them then? You obviously have some kind of ideological standpoint on it. I guess a misplaced ‘kindness’.  
 

Oh well.  I guess I’ll live with that.  

[Bob]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

semenya has a dsd that means she’s benefitted from testosterone due to her undescended testes. 
 

Why do you feel the need to challenge them then? You obviously have some kind of ideological standpoint on it. I guess a misplaced ‘kindness’.  
 

Oh well.  I guess I’ll live with that.  

I have answered that in my post. I feel compelled to challenge your words because the way you use them feels vindictive and makes me uncomfortable and my nature tends to adopt a defence in

such circumstances.

 

Normally when someone is speaking in the way you do on this matter, and the people on the receiving end are a minority of any form, opposing those views ends up having been the right thing to do.

[Rico1304]

9 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

It’s not really. Rico shade focus on the weightlifters age and saying that was where the focus should be, not on the fact she failed to get anywhere near challenging for a medal.

 

I pointed out others elsewhere who were achieving things at older ages.

 

he called one an outlier.

 

phelps was also an outlier, and outliers exist.

 

that was all.

 

it was a moving target kinda thing.

Hold on, you gave examples of two who were 7 years younger than Hubbard and only one of them a weightlifter.  That’s 2 Olympic cycles. 
 

The gymnast is absolutely an outlier. 
 

Hubbard is an outlier by the fact she was a man until 7 years ago and had 35 years of testosterone.  He was rubbish at the sport he now excels at. If she’d have got her  qualifying lift she’d have won silver.  It’s fucking brilliant.  Here’s an old gymnast so let’s open up women’s sports. 

[Rico1304]

5 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I have answered that in my post. I feel compelled to challenge your words because the way you use them feels vindictive and makes me uncomfortable and my nature tends to adopt a defence in

such circumstances.

 

Normally when someone is speaking in the way you do on this matter, and the people on the receiving end are a minority of any form, opposing those views ends up having been the right thing to do.

The cape gave it away. 

[Rico1304]

12 minutes ago, Moo said:

Also fair.

 

I was going to say, after my little discussion with the same poster yesterday about changing rooms and bathrooms, the general discourse on this subject is far too polarised.  There can't possibly be a satisfactory resolution when there's people on both "sides" so entrenched.

What’s this ‘same poster’ bollocks?  

[Moo]

4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

What’s this ‘same poster’ bollocks?  

Sorry Rico1304, didn't mean to offend. 

I forgot your numbers and didn't feel comfortable calling you just Rico as I'm not one of the regular posters on here. Simple as that.

[Rico1304]

Just now, Moo said:

Sorry Rico1304, didn't mean to offend. 

I forgot your numbers and didn't feel comfortable calling you just Rico as I'm not one of the regular posters on here. Simple as that.

The numbers are only my PIN 

[Rico1304]

No biological advantage. 
 

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

[Bjornebye]

[Remmie]

5 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

No biological advantage. 
 

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Incredibly relevant, I'll just go and get a monkey vs human study to counter it

[Rico1304]

24 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Incredibly relevant, I'll just go and get a monkey vs human study to counter it

Mmm, monkey Olympics- that might be the first sense you’ve made on this thread. 
 

Obviously it’s incredibly relevant.  It shows that men (even boys) have a biological advantage so great that their performances completely dominate the women. 

[Remmie]

6 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Mmm, monkey Olympics- that might be the first sense you’ve made on this thread. 
 

Obviously it’s incredibly relevant.  It shows that men (even boys) have a biological advantage so great that their performances completely dominate the women. 

Right and who is saying that isn't the case? 

 

There is incredibly small representation from transgender athletes in professional or elite sport so there is a very small sample size to prove or disprove sporting advantages post transition. In many sports there very well may be and I genuinely don't know what the answer is. 

 

We're certainly not seeing the sporting domination that you are so terrified of. 

 

 

 

 

[Rico1304]

18 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Right and who is saying that isn't the case? 

 

There is incredibly small representation from transgender athletes in professional or elite sport so there is a very small sample size to prove or disprove sporting advantages post transition. In many sports there very well may be and I genuinely don't know what the answer is. 

 

We're certainly not seeing the sporting domination that you are so terrified of. 

 

 

 

 

Have a look back a few pages. It’s all there. 
 

What leads you to think there haven’t been studies to prove that the advantage remains? Genuine question 

[Bob]

12 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Right and who is saying that isn't the case? 

 

There is incredibly small representation from transgender athletes in professional or elite sport so there is a very small sample size to prove or disprove sporting advantages post transition. In many sports there very well may be and I genuinely don't know what the answer is. 

 

We're certainly not seeing the sporting domination that you are so terrified of. 

 

 

 

 

The other aspect for me is the implied suggestion that, now it’s been proven possible to enter the olympics, men who have hitherto fallen just short of their sporting dreams are going to decide to live their life as a woman, to a sufficient degree that they can enter as a trans athlete, to get that longed for Olympic medal.

 

forgot the fact that most sports don’t even have openly gay men competing, these otherwise heterosexual, masculine men, at the peak of their physical prowess, will say “I’ll be wearing a frock from now on and you can call me gloria” to take advantage of their competitive advantage over born women.

 

it’s ludicrous.

 

if enough trans athletes emerge that this becomes a widespread issue genuinely worthy of concern, is say that’s a bloody good thing, as it means enough people are both 1) being able to live their life how they want without persecution, and 2) excelling at sports at the same time.

[Rico1304]

10 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

The other aspect for me is the implied suggestion that, now it’s been proven possible to enter the olympics, men who have hitherto fallen just short of their sporting dreams are going to decide to live their life as a woman, to a sufficient degree that they can enter as a trans athlete, to get that longed for Olympic medal.

 

forgot the fact that most sports don’t even have openly gay men competing, these otherwise heterosexual, masculine men, at the peak of their physical prowess, will say “I’ll be wearing a frock from now on and you can call me gloria” to take advantage of their competitive advantage over born women.

 

it’s ludicrous.

 

if enough trans athletes emerge that this becomes a widespread issue genuinely worthy of concern, is say that’s a bloody good thing, as it means enough people are both 1) being able to live their life how they want without persecution, and 2) excelling at sports at the same time.

Have a look at girls sports in the US.  Average boys become elite girls.  
 

You are describing the end of women’s sports as a good thing. Weird. 
 

Would you agree with say; 

 

mens - open to anyone as it is now, but we’ve never seen a woman compete as, well, they wouldn’t be able to compete

 

Open - as it says, anyone can enter. Men, women, TM, TW

 

Women - only women

 

Edit: men and women take drugs that could kill them to gain an advantage.  Such a leap? 

 

[Remmie]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Have a look back a few pages. It’s all there. 
 

What leads you to think there haven’t been studies to prove that the advantage remains? Genuine question 

I'm sure there have been studies, I saw an article on the BBC recently about it arguing both sides. I am saying that evidence of transgender athletes competing in elite sport is so incredibly small to prove any studies either way. How can anything be proven until it is actually happening? 

 

You are right to imply I haven't read up much on the subject. It's just not simple or black and white in my view as morality has its place in the argument as does science. From what you've said the IOC will be tougher on restrictions in the future. 

 

I think the trans community could do with some representation in media, sport and culture so that fear is conquered and attitudes change. The search history option on this website will show I've made some regrettable comments in the past on this subject, hopefully some outdated attitudes on dysphoria will change in time just like mine have started to.