Transgender stuff - what's going on?

[Rico1304]

31 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

I saw that, also saw that Caster Semenya has been barred from taking part in any races shorter than 5000m, unless she takes testosterone reducing drugs. As her high levels of testosterone give her too much of an advantage in shorter distances.

She’s refused, and then failed to qualify in the 5000m trials.

 

Presumably the Kiwi weightlifter must be on some pretty strict rules? Or is weightlifting adjudged differently to athletics?

You’d think wouldn’t you?  

[Jose Jones]

6 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

You’d think wouldn’t you?  

Which one? Or don’t you know either?

[Rico1304]

The rules on Trans athletes are the same across all sports. But those rules are woefully inadequate.  

[Section_31]

Question I was pondering the other day I'd be interested in people's thoughts on. 

 

Was out shopping with the Mrs and in clothes stores,  they always put the bloke's stuff at the back/upstairs. I read a thing a while ago which said this was because men shop like 'hunters'. They want a pair of trainers with a gum sole - they find the fucker, buy it, and leave the shop.

 

But women shop like gatherers. They'll peruse, buy a bit of this and try that on etc. 

 

If they put the bloke's clobber near the door, he'll venture no further inside. But if it's at the back, the idea is that him and his Mrs will have to go through the women's section to get to it - and she will stop, try stuff on and buy it.

 

Shopper psychology is a 'thing', it's actually pretty interesting IMO.

 

Now, the whole 'gender is taught' thing would suggest that women shop that way because their mums did, or that it's acceptable to do so, whereas it's less so for men. Would  that not suggest though that it goes beyond learned behaviour and is in some way 'wired'?

 

 

 

[John102]

1 hour ago, Jose Jones said:

Which one? Or don’t you know either?

Semenya is banned (Depending on which side of the debate you stand) due to rules brought in by World Athletics. After the last Olympics they brought in rules to say that intersex athletes needed to reduce their testosterone levels to 5 nanomoles per litre in all events up to a mile (I believe thats the cut off), due tot he advantages they were getting over other female athletes.

 

Laurel Hubbard is a weightlifter so doesnt come under these regulations. Im not sure what the weightlifting regulations are, however, the Olympic regulations are that testosterone must be below 10 nanomoles per litre, so twice the level allowed by athletics. The issue remains that some scientists see testosterone as only half the problem and that even taking drugs to reduce it, you are still left with bone and muscle density advanatages over most other females you are competing against.

[SasaS]

1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

Question I was pondering the other day I'd be interested in people's thoughts on. 

 

Was out shopping with the Mrs and in clothes stores,  they always put the bloke's stuff at the back/upstairs. I read a thing a while ago which said this was because men shop like 'hunters'. They want a pair of trainers with a gum sole - they find the fucker, buy it, and leave the shop.

 

But women shop like gatherers. They'll peruse, buy a bit of this and try that on etc. 

 

If they put the bloke's clobber near the door, he'll venture no further inside. But if it's at the back, the idea is that him and his Mrs will have to go through the women's section to get to it - and she will stop, try stuff on and buy it.

 

Shopper psychology is a 'thing', it's actually pretty interesting IMO.

 

Now, the whole 'gender is taught' thing would suggest that women shop that way because their mums did, or that it's acceptable to do so, whereas it's less so for men. Would  that not suggest though that it goes beyond learned behaviour and is in some way 'wired'?

 

It is probably difficult to say what is learned and what is" wired" if you have been learning something over thousands of years. I remember all those stories how male and female brains are different to begin with, they have somehow vanished in recent years, because we are all supposed to be the same, everything is a (opressive) construct and your choice to be whatever you want regardless of obvious facts is (emphatically) celebrated as an act of liberation.

[Jack the Sipper]

2 hours ago, Section_31 said:

Question I was pondering the other day I'd be interested in people's thoughts on. 

 

Was out shopping with the Mrs and in clothes stores,  they always put the bloke's stuff at the back/upstairs. I read a thing a while ago which said this was because men shop like 'hunters'. They want a pair of trainers with a gum sole - they find the fucker, buy it, and leave the shop.

 

But women shop like gatherers. They'll peruse, buy a bit of this and try that on etc. 

 

If they put the bloke's clobber near the door, he'll venture no further inside. But if it's at the back, the idea is that him and his Mrs will have to go through the women's section to get to it - and she will stop, try stuff on and buy it.

 

Shopper psychology is a 'thing', it's actually pretty interesting IMO.

 

Now, the whole 'gender is taught' thing would suggest that women shop that way because their mums did, or that it's acceptable to do so, whereas it's less so for men. Would  that not suggest though that it goes beyond learned behaviour and is in some way 'wired'?

 

 

 

 

There might be something in that - someone who actually designs the layouts in clothes shops would be able to give a definitive answer. Personally, I've always thought (without giving it much thought) that, as women are by far the biggest shoppers of clothes, that stores would naturally want to give them preferential treatment, ie, clothes at the front, not back, of the store.

[Jockey]

2 hours ago, John102 said:

Semenya is banned (Depending on which side of the debate you stand) due to rules brought in by World Athletics. After the last Olympics they brought in rules to say that intersex athletes needed to reduce their testosterone levels to 5 nanomoles per litre in all events up to a mile (I believe thats the cut off), due tot he advantages they were getting over other female athletes.

 

Laurel Hubbard is a weightlifter so doesnt come under these regulations. Im not sure what the weightlifting regulations are, however, the Olympic regulations are that testosterone must be below 10 nanomoles per litre, so twice the level allowed by athletics. The issue remains that some scientists see testosterone as only half the problem and that even taking drugs to reduce it, you are still left with bone and muscle density advanatages over most other females you are competing against.

I always felt the arguments against Semenya were terrible - she was just a genetic freak, akin to a 7ft Basketball player - it is just tough shit for those competing against her - her fastest time still wasn't in the top 50 every for mens 800m. 

 

How on earth can a 6'2 male - transitioning to a woman, not have a genetic advantage over a born woman? Where does it stop? Boxing, MMA? Sometimes life isn't fair - all you can do is try and make life as best as possible, make a transwoman feel unthreatened, safe and accepted as a woman - but acknowledge that she can't compete professionally with born women. 

[dockers_strike]

Ive no issue with how people want to identify themselves. This is a very sensitive and difficult issue insofar as athletes competing against each other are concerned.

 

Everyone has subscribed to the idea of male and female athletes compete in separate competitions for generations. It's been seen as not equal competition of males and females competing directly against one another..

 

Nature has been unkind to athletes and people like Caster Semenya and others with the same condition. As I understand the issue, people like Semenya are 'inter sex' either not having developed male or female genitals and not easily defined male \ female chromosomes.

 

There are also a number of athletes who are transgender. Generally, it seems that mens transgendering to female quite late in life so, the argument goes, they've physically developed as males before competing as females giving them advantage of bone density, muscle tissue and even haemoglobin count.

 

Whichever way you look at this, there is some 'unfairness,' unfairness in the way nature hasnt resulted in some people's bodies developing into male or female, some male athletes in stronger bodies transgendering and competing against females and of course, natural females who are quite literally being muscled out of winning by men transgendering.

 

I dont know what the answer is. Maybe there should be a 3rd category for inter sex and transgender athletes to compete in a separate group within competition?

 

Im not sure you can ever have inter sex and transgender athletes competing fairly with those born and biologically women. Sorry if a few descriptive terms offend anyone or appear clumsy but as I said, it is a very emotive and sensitive subject.

[Bjornebye]

I can't be the only man out there who likes browsing the womens clothes section 

[Jack the Sipper]

I remember a couple of years back some prominent trans activist on Twitter calling boxer Nicola Adams a bigoted transphobe and all the rest for expressing reservations about getting in the ring with a boxer who was born, raised and fought as a man, but who'd decided to call themselves a woman in order to fight women. His comments were, not surprisingly, met with a wall of approval from the trans lobby there.

 

I hadn't paid much attention to the growing trans debate up to that point, but that tweet and its reaction really stuck in my mind as my first wake up call to just how unreasonable, entitled and, in many cases, downright nasty, some of these activists are. I have to say, nothing I've seen since from them has made me change my mind.

 

 

[Bjornebye]

Just now, Jack the Sipper said:

I remember a couple of years back some prominent trans activist on Twitter calling boxer Nicola Adams a bigoted transphobe and all the rest for expressing reservations about getting in the ring with a boxer who was born, raised and fought as a man, but who'd decided to call themselves a woman in order to fight women. His comments were, not surprisingly, met with a wall of approval from the trans lobby there.

 

 

Shame he didn't say it to her face. 

[johnsusername]

21 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

I can't be the only man out there who likes browsing the womens clothes section 

[Jockey]

57 minutes ago, Jack the Sipper said:

I remember a couple of years back some prominent trans activist on Twitter calling boxer Nicola Adams a bigoted transphobe and all the rest for expressing reservations about getting in the ring with a boxer who was born, raised and fought as a man, but who'd decided to call themselves a woman in order to fight women. His comments were, not surprisingly, met with a wall of approval from the trans lobby there.

 

I hadn't paid much attention to the growing trans debate up to that point, but that tweet and its reaction really stuck in my mind as my first wake up call to just how unreasonable, entitled and, in many cases, downright nasty, some of these activists are. I have to say, nothing I've seen since from them has made me change my mind.

 

 

Yep. There is an obvious aspect of misogyny in some of the criticism - ironically the trans lobby displaying very male patriarchal behaviour! Female athletes have to contend with their menstrual cycle every month - something that no transwomen is ever going to have to deal with. The very concept that they are both coming from the same situation is ridiculous. I think if you have to argue what is wrong with Twitter, and social media in general the attitude of the Trans lobby is a good starting point - absolutely no sense of compromise over an issue that is clearly very difficult. 

 

I'm not sure there is a 'right' answer on this. But insisting one side shuts up and remains silent is not the solution, especially when that side is female and they have been fighting against discrimination for centuries. 

[tokyojoe]

1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

I can't be the only man out there who likes browsing the womens clothes section 

That's one way of sneaking into the womens changing room I suppose.

[Section_31]

2 hours ago, Jack the Sipper said:

I remember a couple of years back some prominent trans activist on Twitter calling boxer Nicola Adams a bigoted transphobe and all the rest for expressing reservations about getting in the ring with a boxer who was born, raised and fought as a man, but who'd decided to call themselves a woman in order to fight women. His comments were, not surprisingly, met with a wall of approval from the trans lobby there.

 

I hadn't paid much attention to the growing trans debate up to that point, but that tweet and its reaction really stuck in my mind as my first wake up call to just how unreasonable, entitled and, in many cases, downright nasty, some of these activists are. I have to say, nothing I've seen since from them has made me change my mind.

 

 

 

The sad thing about it is that I reckon a lot of it is about pissing on chips. Similar to the people who go on about wanting a female James Bond. They don't really, they just want to get angry about something, create some kind of 'change', them move on to the next battle - they probably wouldn't even watch a female James Bond film. 

 

Same with a lot of this. Most people getting angry about anyone who's not happy with the idea of a male turned female bodybuilder competing against women probably aren't genuinely arsed, they just want to fume then win, fume then win. On Twitter. 

[Bjornebye]

33 minutes ago, tokyojoe said:

That's one way of sneaking into the womens changing room I suppose.

Good place to meet birds mate. "You'd look nice in that" then just saunter off like a cowboy into the sunset then ambush them in the pastry aisle and wait for them to either a) make a move b) ignore you/pretend to phone the police or c) twat you with a breadstick. Either way your chances of getting a shag are far better than in the mens section. Unless of course... you fancy a quick bum. 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I've never ever ever done this but I guarantee Lifey will try it about 14 times by the weekend after he reads this. 

[Rico1304]

 

[John102]

12 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

 

As was said in this thread, if transgender people aren't winning all the medals, what is the problem. 

[Rico1304]

20 minutes ago, John102 said:

As was said in this thread, if transgender people aren't winning all the medals, what is the problem. 

So you don’t mind that biological men are taking the places of women in women’s sport? If you don’t then fine, but you must be able to see it’s unfair.  Hubbard could compete in the open category, but wants to compete with women, where, coincidentally despite being about 20 yrs older than a peak female athlete she’s now going to the Olympics whilst the athlete in the pic stays at home.  

[Section_31]

A little bit of wee doesn't stop me being me. 

[John102]

15 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

So you don’t mind that biological men are taking the places of women in women’s sport? If you don’t then fine, but you must be able to see it’s unfair.  Hubbard could compete in the open category, but wants to compete with women, where, coincidentally despite being about 20 yrs older than a peak female athlete she’s now going to the Olympics whilst the athlete in the pic stays at home.  

Sorry, my comment was made with tongue in cheek. 

[Rico1304]

3 minutes ago, John102 said:

Sorry, my comment was made with tongue in cheek. 

Ha. I’m half asleep. It whooshed. 

[Rico1304]

This is worth a listen.  It covers most of the arguments. 
 

 

[Rico1304]

This is the same bloke taking the twat Harwood apart - thread