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Transgender stuff - what's going on?


Gym Beglin
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Just now, John102 said:

I will have a look out for these studies that show trans women are at a disadvantage.

 

I have no issue in general, however, men's sporting records are generally better than women's. Maybe in all sports. I dont think their is anything remotely controversial in that. These trans women already acknowledge they were born into the wrong bodies i.e mens. To then pretend they dont have an advantage over those born into a female body seems odd.

 

Sport is inherently a competition of physicality. if we cant be grown up enough to give trans people support but acknowledge that unfortunately due to a quirk of nature that they were born with unfair advantages over other woman, then thats a shame.

I don't really know what your point is. The current guidelines were formed to be inclusive and fair. The evidence of the last 16 years would suggest they got it right. If things change, and a new breed of super trans athletes comes along, I'm sure the guidelines can be amended, but to get in a stew about it now, when nothing's actually happening, seems bizarre to me.

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7 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Would they? Who's excluding them?

 

On one hand you're saying there aren't enough trans athletes to ascertain whether or not whether they have an unfair advantage, and on the other that there are so many, cis women are being excluded. I'm not sure those two viewpoints can co-exist.

I’m saying women face barriers in sport ( funding, recognition, support) and anything that endangers that is a concern.  Numbers of trans athletes are increasing, if (big if I grant you) that stops women competing it’s crazy. 

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2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I’m saying women face barriers in sport ( funding, recognition, support) and anything that endangers that is a concern.  Numbers of trans athletes are increasing, if (big if I grant you) that stops women competing it’s crazy. 

Ok, but is that actually happening anywhere? Is it even close to happening? You're a noted facts and reason guy, Rico, but you don't seem to be applying them here. You're dealing purely in wild hypotheticals.

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8 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

I don't really know what your point is. The current guidelines were formed to be inclusive and fair. The evidence of the last 16 years would suggest they got it right. If things change, and a new breed of super trans athletes comes along, I'm sure the guidelines can be amended, but to get in a stew about it now, when nothing's actually happening, seems bizarre to me.

My point is that the integrity of womens sport is compromised by this. Not only trans athletes granted, but also intersex athletes like Semenya. 

 

That we should only care about women coming up against trans individuals if its competing for major titles or medals is not a view i can ascribe to.

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1 hour ago, Duff Man said:

The perception is that they have an unfair advantage, but the reality is quite different. Some studies even show that more often than not they're actually disadvantaged. I think a lot of people just assume it's basically a man competing against a woman, but that's really not the case, and the evidence bears it out.

 

In combat sports I can only think of Fallon Fox, who was bang average, and handily beaten by the only decent fighter she came across.

 

 

Well from I've read about the track and field issue in the US would suggest that it's a major issue. College male athletes unable to break into the top 200 in men's 100-400m one season, identify as female the next and are blitzing everyone on the track. 

 

It's bloody complicated issue but even in the case of Semenya(not sure if I've spelled that correct) her levels are supposedly so far off the other females athletes there is no way it's fair. If another female athlete took hormones to level the playing field they are banned for life. 

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1 minute ago, Lee909 said:

 

 

Well from I've read about the track and field issue in the US would suggest that it's a major issue. College male athletes unable to break into the top 200 in men's 100-400m one season, identify as female the next and are blitzing everyone on the track. 

 

It's bloody complicated issue but even in the case of Semenya(not sure if I've spelled that correct) her levels are supposedly so far off the other females athletes there is no way it's fair. If another female athlete took hormones to level the playing field they are banned for life. 

I think its important to distinguish between trans, which Semenya isnt i dont believe, and intersex, which she is. I think its part of the same issue facing womens sport, but still.

 

All 3 800m womens medalists in Rio where intersex i believe.

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8 minutes ago, Lee909 said:

 

 

Well from I've read about the track and field issue in the US would suggest that it's a major issue. College male athletes unable to break into the top 200 in men's 100-400m one season, identify as female the next and are blitzing everyone on the track. 

 

It's bloody complicated issue but even in the case of Semenya(not sure if I've spelled that correct) her levels are supposedly so far off the other females athletes there is no way it's fair. If another female athlete took hormones to level the playing field they are banned for life. 

Some high schools don't currently require students to undergo hormone treatment when competing. Pretty sure all colleges do. But again, even at that level, I don't think there's a trans person who has completely dominated.

 

As for Caster Semenya, she isn't allowed to compete in anything up to the 1500m now without undergoing hormone treatment.

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3 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Well, yeah, exactly.

That is quite frankly a ridiculous argument.

 

As i say, if you have access to evidence that backs up your view that trans people are actually at a disadvantage i would happily read it.

 

I would say nobody would dispute that men have physical advantages over women. Its not really up for debate is it. Where is this evidence that it disappears when men transition?

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Just now, Duff Man said:

Tell me what the difference is between Caster Semenya and Michael Phelps.

One is a swimmer and one is a runner?

 

One is has XY chromosomes and competes against other XY athletes, whilst one is XY athlete who competes against XX athletes.

 

To use your argument earlier, all 3 medalists in 800 metres were XY and competed against XX women. Is it at this point that you said the authrities should step in?

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9 minutes ago, John102 said:

That is quite frankly a ridiculous argument.

 

As i say, if you have access to evidence that backs up your view that trans people are actually at a disadvantage i would happily read it.

 

I would say nobody would dispute that men have physical advantages over women. Its not really up for debate is it. Where is this evidence that it disappears when men transition?

Why is it ridiculous, mate? 

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2 minutes ago, John102 said:

One is a swimmer and one is a runner?

 

One is has XY chromosomes and competes against other XY athletes, whilst one is XY athlete who competes against XX athletes.

 

To use your argument earlier, all 3 medalists in 800 metres were XY and competed against XX women. Is it at this point that you said the authrities should step in?

Are you a biologist or geneticist? 

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2 minutes ago, moof said:

Usain Bolt has a significant genetic advantage against every top sprinter on the planet. Are chromosomes the only measure of genetic diversity? 

They are an irrefutable marker of what we accept to be biologically male and female. There is an incredible amount of genetic diversity within this that you allude to with Phelps and Bolt, though this is diversity within the category that both men and women accept when they compete. Otherwise why split men and women at all. For me, if you are going to split the sexes and compete on that basis, you have to split them on the basis of what fundamentally makes them male and female and that is at a chromosomal level. Not what they look like, whether they wear make up or want to use the female toilets. 

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