Grenfall Tower Fire

[Rico1304]

Calls himself an expert. Pah...

This is a high rise in France 4 years ago. The description says the panelling is polystyrene used for insulation. It does demonstrate how quickly it can take hold. Luckily the firefighters get to it quickly.

[YouTube]

[/YouTube]

You are joking. I pray you are joking. Of course you're joking.

 

Good joke.

[Anubis]

If you're talking about the first line. Yes.

 

I just posted the video to show that it's not unprecedented at how quickly it takes hold though.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

There's no way anyone could possibly know that this early.

 

True, but Grenfell has had historical late night power surges.

 

From 2013:

 

NO JUSTICE FOR GRENFELL TOWER POWER SURGE VICTIMS

Posted on August 13, 2013 by grenfellactiongroup

 

Grenfell Tower residents were today informed that the Council’s and TMO’s insurers ‘Zurich’ will not be compensating them for damage to electrical appliances suffered by many in the recent power surge debacle. ‘Zurich’ found that the TMO had not been negligent in regard to this incident. They therefore declined to provide compensation in response to residents insurance claims.

 

This appears to be a classic Catch 22 situation. Residents can’t be compensated unless the TMO admits negligence, and the TMO will never admit negligence for fear of embarrassment, and to avoid any possibility of facing criminal charges for endangering life by negligence.

 

Following this contemptible decision to deny liability and thereby deny compensation to victims of the Grenfell Tower power surges, residents are strongly urged to attend the EMB Rooms on Thursday evening, 15th August, at 6.30pm to show their displeasure.

(please see attached letter – no compensation )

 

As if it wasn’t bad enough that our landlords would subject residents to the frightening experience of having electrical appliances blow up and catch fire in their homes – to then refuse to compensate the victims for their losses is just beyond the pale.

Perhaps we should take this opportunity also to thank the members of the RBKC Housing and Property Scrutiny Committee to whom this issue was referred in July,  giving Grenfell Tower residents renewed, but alas false, hope that that they might be fairly treated after all.  Well done guys – we got everything we expected from you.

 

LIKE SO MUCH THAT GOES ON WITH THE MANAGEMENT OF LANCASTER WEST – THIS STINKS!

 

STOP PRESS

 

15th August

 

Following this evening’s meeting of Grenfell Tower residents with representatives of the TMO to discuss the refusal of the Council’s and TMO’s insurers to compensate victims of the power surge debacle, we have been asked to make available for download a letter template for use by residents, which makes clear that the £200 goodwill payment will be accepted only if it does not prejudice the individual’s right to continue to seek full compensation from the TMO. The letter also requests copies of various documents which will be needed as evidence by the complainant should legal action in pursuit of compensation become necessary. You can download the letter template from the following link:  Grenfell Tower – Letter Before Action

 

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/no-justice-for-grenfell-tower-power-surge-victims/

 

If this proves to be the reason that the fire started, the Council and TMO are fucked.

[Rico1304]

If you're talking about the first line. Yes.

I just posted the video to show that it's not unprecedented at how quickly it takes hold though.

I'm sure if the fire expert googled something about criminal law you'd be equally accommodating.

[magicrat]

Disagree completely, it's all part of the same problem, a class of people that bemoan the idea of paying their fair share then cry crocodile tears when the fallout from that comes home to roost.

 

This whole thing is about inequality, be it cladding put up to make the sight of the flats more tolerable for wealthy home owners, to the lack of decent housing in general. Yet we're a society that worships wealth and fame and tolerates people moaning about paying their fair share. Fuck that shit. If it was anyone else but her, except for maybe Jimmy Carr, Barlow or other tax dodging twats I wouldn't give a flying fuck, but bollocks to her and her ilk.

 

Yeh but the inequality is promoted by the cunts in power. The Tory council and their Lords and Masters in Westminster are the real villains here. A  PM that won't look a victim in the eye .  I used to have a boss who was worth millions and he was a lifelong Labour supporter, If anyone ever moaned about taxes he would tell them he felt privileged to be earning enough to pay them. He was great man, sadly gone now but he despised tax dodgers and despite the fact he could avoided a lot of corporation and personal tax he always paid his whack. Yeh fuck the tax dodging twats but the Tories are the prime reason tax dodging is a national obsession now and they are enemy here not some show biz gobshites,

[Chip Butty]

Disturbing piece in the Guardian regarding the use of one material over another in external cladding and the dangers, by government building safety experts, last year....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/experts-warned-government-against-cladding-material-used-on-grenfell

[Dougie Do'ins]

The BBC blatantly making excuses for May and why her visit to the scene was private and also having a veiled pop at Corbyn.

[Rico1304]

If you just watched Mark Easton's piece on the news and still think the BBC is biased you are mental. Complete nonsense.

[Champ]

The BBC blatantly making excuses for May and why her visit to the scene was private and also having a veiled pop at Corbyn.

For coming across as a more decent human being than May? It would have been hard to do otherwise

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

Question Time should be an interesting watch.

[Anubis]

I'm sure if the fire expert googled something about criminal law you'd be equally accommodating.

Whatever you say, there, White.

[magicrat]

Question Time should be an interesting watch.

 

Has Dumbledore carked it ?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

The Times reporting that the cladding used wasn't entirely fire proof.

 

Cost £22 per panel. Usually effective, but more effective panels available at a more expensive £24 per panel. That would've been an extra £5k altogether to pretty much guarantee that the block was fire proofed...

[Preston Red]

No getting into the conspiracy but the fire in NY should not have been hot enough to melt steel.

Steel doesn't have to melt in order for it to buckle. The melting point of steel is around 1370°C but at a lower heat it does begin to reach a yield point whereby it will deform in a "plastic" manner and lead to structural failure. This is due to heat bringing about expansion in the structure of the beams and lead to atoms moving more freely and weakening it's ability to withstand a compressive force acting down upon it.

 

Just spit balling here:

 

If the top section of one of the towers that collapsed weighed 1000 tons (1,000,000kg) and disregarding air resistance it would have a gravitational force acting down at a rate of 9.81m/s^2. F=ma (Force = mass x acceleration due to gravity) therefore, Force = 1,000,000kg x 9.81m/s^2. Force = 9.81MN (Meganewtons) acting down upon a weakened steel structure. Once this gives way it then becomes a domino effect bringing the rest down as it gives way.

 

The maximum burning temperature of jet fuel is 980°C. Lower than the melting point of steel, but steel doesn't have to melt before it buckles. The strength of structural steel actually increases up to 140% at around 225-230°C but then it begins to weaken and ultimately fails at 585-590°C.

 

Sorry for the long winded reply. I have recently just passed a Mechanical Engineering HNC. Fatigue and failure plays a large part in the science and materials modules.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

^ show off

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

https://twitter.com/Fi_Rutherford/status/875332304633200641

[FanchesterCity]

Steel doesn't have to melt in order for it to buckle. The melting point of steel is around 1370°C but at a lower heat it does begin to reach a yield point whereby it will deform in a "plastic" manner and lead to structural failure. This is due to heat bringing about expansion in the structure of the beams and lead to atoms moving more freely and weakening it's ability to withstand a compressive force acting down upon it.

 

Just spit balling here:

 

If the top section of one of the towers that collapsed weighed 1000 tons (1,000,000kg) and disregarding air resistance it would have a gravitational force acting down at a rate of 9.81m/s^2. F=ma (Force = mass x acceleration due to gravity) therefore, Force = 1,000,000kg x 9.81m/s^2. Force = 9.81MN (Meganewtons) acting down upon a weakened steel structure. Once this gives way it then becomes a domino effect bringing the rest down as it gives way.

 

The maximum burning temperature of jet fuel is 980°C. Lower than the melting point of steel, but steel doesn't have to melt before it buckles. The strength of structural steel actually increases up to 140% at around 225-230°C but then it begins to weaken and ultimately fails at 585-590°C.

 

Sorry for the long winded reply. I have recently just passed a Mechanical Engineering HNC. Fatigue and failure plays a large part in the science and materials modules.

 

It doesn't 'fail' at 585 per se. The static load on the steel is usually around 50% of its capability at normal room temperature... by 585 degrees the strength of the steel is approx 50% - this effectively means the structure is stable at 585 but maxed out (just about able to support the load)... but above that, the steel starts to become too weak to support the load.

 

In layman's terms - the steel is twice as strong as it needs to be (normally), but by 585 deg, it's only 'just' as strong as it needs to be... above 585, there's a problem...

 

The term 'critical temperature' is the cut off point where the temperature (and thus strength) of the steel is not longer capable of supporting the load. If there is less load, then the critical temperature is higher, and if there's more load, the critical temperature is lower.

 

It's probably more accurate to say the structure is likely to be compromised above 585deg (assuming a 50% load).

 

I know it's 55%, but for the sake of easy maths, 50%'ll do!

 

Some specialist steels can cope better at higher temperatures, but it's unlikely they've been used in this instance - also the concrete itself acts to protect the steel in structural columns so the steel inside the columns may not reach that temperature for some time. Ultimately, I suppose the proof is in the pudding - and the structure's still standing, although I'm sure there was concern that it might at risk of collapse.

[Red Phoenix]

If the top section of one of the towers that collapsed weighed 1000 tons (1,000,000kg) and disregarding air resistance it would have a gravitational force acting down at a rate of 9.81m/s^2. F=ma (Force = mass x acceleration due to gravity) therefore, Force = 1,000,000kg x 9.81m/s^2. Force = 9.81MN (Meganewtons) acting down upon a weakened steel structure. Once this gives way it then becomes a domino effect bringing the rest down as it gives way.

 

 

I can't resist, I really can't. Will post in the conspiracy thread. A simple question then will link here and try to leave it. Thanks if you can respond to me in that thread, really don't want to be derailing this one with 9/11 (even if some of you carry on here, I don't want to that's all.)

[Red Phoenix]

Here you go Preston : http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.php?/topic/61194-top-ten-conspiracy-theories/?p=4810831

 

I've no intention of arguing or trying to score any points, and it's mainly one question (even though I eventually asked several, it's put in one question at a certain point to make it easier for you to respond.) Am interested in your take on it that's all.

[skend04]

The Express linking EU regulations to the fire. Is there nothing the shithouses won't do to further their own agendas? Disgusting.

[aRdja]

Scumbags. Absolute cunts the Daily Mail.

 

[Section_31]

Yeh but the inequality is promoted by the cunts in power. The Tory council and their Lords and Masters in Westminster are the real villains here. A  PM that won't look a victim in the eye .  I used to have a boss who was worth millions and he was a lifelong Labour supporter, If anyone ever moaned about taxes he would tell them he felt privileged to be earning enough to pay them. He was great man, sadly gone now but he despised tax dodgers and despite the fact he could avoided a lot of corporation and personal tax he always paid his whack. Yeh fuck the tax dodging twats but the Tories are the prime reason tax dodging is a national obsession now and they are enemy here not some show biz gobshites,

 

Yeah I don't disagree, but I've got plenty of ire to go around. It's all part of the same shit tapestry. I feel the same way when I see a foodbank collection in Tesco next to a load of automated tills. These are all components of the same shit system.

 

Even if she'd done it on the sly I don't think I'd be as arsed but she's been by far the most vocal tax moaner I can certainly remember. Woe is me, they've taken a percentage of some of the extreme amounts of wealth I get for warbling and here's a block full of taxi drivers and shop workers who've just been incinerated because of shit work to make the outside look more palatable to Russian gangsters. This kine of talk from influential people bleeds into the views of everyday people. If people in the public eye laud public spirit, duty and service they will influence people, likewise if they espouse selfishness people will follow that example too.

[Vincent Vega]

The Express linking EU regulations to the fire. Is there nothing the shithouses won't do to further their own agendas? Disgusting.

 

The Mail's front page blames "green targets".

[Moctezuma]

Keep going past it on the way to work, haunting is the description I would use.

 

Given the block is alongside the A40 it might prompt some of those who live in leafy Bucks and commute into London for various media organisations and government pause for thought each morning and evening as to how austerity and the willful neglect of housing let people down so badly.

[skend04]

The Mail's front page blames "green targets".

Yeah, it's nothing to do with the Tories, and in particular May's new advisor, sitting on reports and recommendations about the safety of tower blocks for the last 4/5 years. Cunts.