Grenfall Tower Fire

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

'Blood on their hands' David Lammy makes claims of cover up as documents 'destroyed'

LABOUR MP David Lammy has made dramatic claims of a cover up over the tragic Grenfell Tower fire.

PUBLISHED: 11:14, Sun, Jun 18, 2017 | UPDATED: 11:35, Sun, Jun 18, 2017

Mr Lammy, who lost his friend, artist Khadija Saye, in Wednesday's blaze, called on the Prime Minister and Metropolitan Police to immediately seize all relevant Grenfell Tower documents.

He said that after speaking to residents, suspicion of a cover-up is rising and Theresa May and investigators must ensure all pertinent documents are protected.

The Tottenham MP said: "Within the community, trust in the authorities is falling through the floor and a suspicion of a cover-up is rising.

"The Prime Minister needs to act immediately to ensure that all evidence is protected so that everyone culpable for what happened at Grenfell Tower is held to account and feels the full force of the law.

"We need urgent action now to make sure that all records and documents relating to the refurbishment and management of Grenfell Tower are protected."

Justice can only done if all records - emails, minutes of meetings, correspondence with contractors, safety assessments, specifications and reports - are preserved, he said.

The 24-storey tower in Latimer Road, North Kensington, has been destroyed after a fire which started on the second floor rapidly spread to the top of the 120-flat block
                
He added: "When the truth comes out about this tragedy we may find that there is blood on the hands of a number of organisations.

"At this stage, it is my grave concern that the families of Grenfell Tower will not get justice if documents are being quietly destroyed and shredded and emails are being deleted."

The police have powers to seize all documents, but Section 35 of the Public Inquiry Act, which makes the destruction of any documents a criminal offence, does not apply until a chairman is appointed and the terms of reference set.
 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/818423/grenfell-tower-fire-london-david-lammy-claims-cover-up-kensington

 

Shocking claims.

[Denny Crane]

Hammond on the cladding

 

BBC News (UK) @BBCNews

 

"My understanding is that the cladding in question... is also banned here" - Philip Hammond on #GrenfellTower (link: http://bbc.in/2sG5Ey9) bbc.in/2sG5Ey9

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNews/status/876361665112973312/video/1

[Denny Crane]

Seems odd by Hammond as others who work in the industry say otherwise.

[Creator Supreme]

Most people on that twitter feed are fucking scum of the earth. Sickening!

[Red Phoenix]

'Blood on their hands' David Lammy makes claims of cover up as documents 'destroyed'

 

LABOUR MP David Lammy has made dramatic claims of a cover up over the tragic Grenfell Tower fire.

 

PUBLISHED: 11:14, Sun, Jun 18, 2017 | UPDATED: 11:35, Sun, Jun 18, 2017

 

Mr Lammy, who lost his friend, artist Khadija Saye, in Wednesday's blaze, called on the Prime Minister and Metropolitan Police to immediately seize all relevant Grenfell Tower documents.

 

He said that after speaking to residents, suspicion of a cover-up is rising and Theresa May and investigators must ensure all pertinent documents are protected.

 

The Tottenham MP said: "Within the community, trust in the authorities is falling through the floor and a suspicion of a cover-up is rising.

 

"The Prime Minister needs to act immediately to ensure that all evidence is protected so that everyone culpable for what happened at Grenfell Tower is held to account and feels the full force of the law.

 

"We need urgent action now to make sure that all records and documents relating to the refurbishment and management of Grenfell Tower are protected."

 

Justice can only done if all records - emails, minutes of meetings, correspondence with contractors, safety assessments, specifications and reports - are preserved, he said.

 

The 24-storey tower in Latimer Road, North Kensington, has been destroyed after a fire which started on the second floor rapidly spread to the top of the 120-flat block

                

He added: "When the truth comes out about this tragedy we may find that there is blood on the hands of a number of organisations.

 

"At this stage, it is my grave concern that the families of Grenfell Tower will not get justice if documents are being quietly destroyed and shredded and emails are being deleted."

 

The police have powers to seize all documents, but Section 35 of the Public Inquiry Act, which makes the destruction of any documents a criminal offence, does not apply until a chairman is appointed and the terms of reference set.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/818423/grenfell-tower-fire-london-david-lammy-claims-cover-up-kensington

 

Shocking claims.

 

They were deleting some of their websites within hours of the building having been on fire, so I'm going to assume that they're not so bothered about keeping all of what's relevant to the investigation.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

They were deleting some of their websites within hours of the building having been on fire, so I'm going to assume that they're not so bothered about keeping all of what's relevant to the investigation.

 

Residents and other have been downloading info from their sites since the fire.

 

Brilliant Lammy interview just now on Sky News:

 

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/876405466703777793

[FanchesterCity]

As tragic as this is, I also worry that we're not looking for a scapegoat and we WILL find one, at all costs.

In truth, it's unlikely there's one specific overall cause in the process of choosing fire safety solutions, or even in the fire itself, but the public's now wanting someone to take the blame.

 

I'm caught in two minds over this - of course, a general complacency across the industry exists, and in this case, it's resulted in tragic deaths, but at the same time, it's not 'justice' to actively seek someone to blame in order to satisfy public demand.

 

A council might argue 'we did as much as we could with the budget we had'.

A contractor might argue 'we were tasked with striking a balance between practicilaty and affordability'

A supplier might argue 'we merely supplied a product as requested, it was used in the wrong application'  etc, etc.

 

None of them are specifically to blame, but as an overall project, it's failed with disastrous consequences.

Ultimately the drive to provide more and more housing with lesser and lesser budgets, working with companies who are looking to make more and more money, or as is commonplace in the construction industry, just looking to stay afloat and pressured to produce the lowest possible tender in order to win the work - all combine to produce this situation.

 

It's quite easy to blame the incumbent government too, but some of these tower blocks are from the 60's. Government after government has let it slide.

[ben48]

As tragic as this is, I also worry that we're not looking for a scapegoat and we WILL find one, at all costs.

In truth, it's unlikely there's one specific overall cause in the process of choosing fire safety solutions, or even in the fire itself, but the public's now wanting someone to take the blame.

 

I'm caught in two minds over this - of course, a general complacency across the industry exists, and in this case, it's resulted in tragic deaths, but at the same time, it's not 'justice' to actively seek someone to blame in order to satisfy public demand.

 

A council might argue 'we did as much as we could with the budget we had'.

A contractor might argue 'we were tasked with striking a balance between practicilaty and affordability'

A supplier might argue 'we merely supplied a product as requested, it was used in the wrong application' etc, etc.

 

None of them are specifically to blame, but as an overall project, it's failed with disastrous consequences.

Ultimately the drive to provide more and more housing with lesser and lesser budgets, working with companies who are looking to make more and more money, or as is commonplace in the construction industry, just looking to stay afloat and pressured to produce the lowest possible tender in order to win the work - all combine to produce this situation.

 

It's quite easy to blame the incumbent government too, but some of these tower blocks are from the 60's. Government after government has let it slide.

Hang on ole pal,they are saying that this was a 9 million refit,how many houses could you build with that,9 fuckin million,what did that get spent on,or pocketed.

[FanchesterCity]

Hang on ole pal,they are saying that this was a 9 million refit,how many houses could you build with that,9 fuckin million,what did that get spent on,or pocketed.

 

it works out at about 75K per flat.

You could not build 120 homes in that part of London for that price (and let's not forget, that's including kitchens and bathrooms too etc).

 

However, there is an argument that nationally, we need to be encouraging people to move out of London, but that's another issue.

 

One of the problems with these sorts of builds/refurbs is that a main contractor wins the bid (let's say at 9 million quid). Their subcontractors are doing it for 7.5 million quid, and in turn, their subcontractors are doing it for about 5 million quid. In the construction industry, there's a lot of sub-contracting going on, thus each tier is adding on their own profit margin. Right at the bottom, the actual workforce often comprises of a lot of low paid construction workers, many of whom are from Eastern Europe and struggle with the language - they have 1 or 2 decent English speakers who translate for the others.

 

On site, there's usually a massive pressure to 'get in, and get out as quickly as possible' and many trades don't give a toss about other trades. It's a first come, first served basis for getting electrics / plumbing / heating in. The sprinklers are often one of the last things to go in, and 100% guarantee that the aesthetics of lighting positions take priority over sprinkler head positions. That means that whilst nobody's breaking the law, and sprinkler heads should still be in acceptable positions, they are not in their optimal positions. This is usually because halogen or led lights, or corridor lights need to 'look nice' and be aligned perfectly down the centre etc, the sprinklers get shoved to the side.

 

The sprinkler guys will be given a room dimension on the plans and ceiling height (IF they are lucky) and have to do their designs based on that... but once the room is populated with furniture, someone could put a huge wardrobe or cabinet under a sprinkler and inhibit its performance dramatically. I've been on a job recently in a Fire Station of all places, where hanging lights have been put under the sprinklers, inhibiting their performance. I kid you not.

[Jay86]

When and why did London get so expensive to live and work in in the first place?

 

It's ridiculous that the average house price in London is £600k.

[FanchesterCity]

When and why did London get so expensive to live and work in in the first place?

 

It's ridiculous that the average house price in London is £600k.

 

Seems to be a worldwide phenomenon in capital cities or particular prestigious locations... I would guess exacerbated by speculators who buy multiple houses and create a shortage, thus driving up the price. 

[VladimirIlyich]

When and why did London get so expensive to live and work in in the first place?

 

It's ridiculous that the average house price in London is £600k.

City centre living and other such trends. Remember that housing tends to spread from near the source of major employment centres and with so many jobs being office based its inevitable those workers want to be closer to work. Merseyside's major housing areas are products of being located within short distances of local riversides and docks.

[Carvalho Diablo]

Just a few days removed and I will say this, I really hope that those poor people who have suffered find that their justice, compensation and truth comes to them quickly and painlessly, the total opposite from HJC.

 

I think that this hope is wholly dependant on the future of this inept PM and this self-interested, heartless fucking government.

[Carvalho Diablo]

.

[Red Phoenix]

Residents and other have been downloading info from their sites since the fire.

 

Brilliant Lammy interview just now on Sky News:

 

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/876405466703777793

 

That was awesome, thanks. And yeah have read about people getting info from sites too, some from hours after they deleted them via internet archive sites and so on. It's annoying to think of them probably deleting e-mails and other stuff but there should still be quite a bit of other information available.

[magicrat]

Just a few days removed and I will say this, I really hope that those poor people who have suffered find that their justice, compensation and truth comes to them quickly and painlessly, the total opposite from HJC.

 

I think that this hope is wholly dependant on the future of this inept PM and this self-interested, heartless fucking government.

 

The same factors in play namely a government that will be desperate to prevent any of the shite finding its way back to their doorstep, Already a public enquiry that will report to the worst person possible, Theresa strong and stable, never answer a straight fucking question May, 

The Tories will ensure victims will wait a generation for justice and pull every stunt in the book to dodge any blame

[Anubis]

From anger to graciousness. The fire crews look like they're on the verge of tears.

 

https://twitter.com/AngrySalmond/status/876429831344459776

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Poor buggers, they must have witnessed some terrible stuff. Heroes who deserve better backing from the Government. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Utter biff on the Sky paper review thing.

 

Saying the march to Downing Street was hijacked by Socialist Worker people and was nothing better than an EDL/BNP march.

 

Then, in criticising the suggestion of freeing up luxury, unoccupied houses in London, he compared property rights and owning a spare home to having too many clothes, asking if people should be able to come and take his old jumpers if he bought some new ones.

 

Christ.

[Section_31]

The whole affair actually encapsulates Cameron's idea of the big society, we've cut the state so sort your own shit, give each other blankets and water and buy brews for the fire fighters because we've sold Social Services to B&Q in exchange for a speed boat, a hooker and a hand job. 

[Carvalho Diablo]

The whole affair actually encapsulates Cameron's idea of the big society, we've cut the state so sort your own shit, give each other blankets and water and buy brews for the fire fighters because we've sold Social Services to B&Q in exchange for a speed boat, a hooker and a hand job.

Sounds like a party political broadcast on behalf of the Conservative Party.

 

One of their better efforts tbh.

[ben48]

The same factors in play namely a government that will be desperate to prevent any of the shite finding its way back to their doorstep, Already a public enquiry that will report to the worst person possible, Theresa strong and stable, never answer a straight fucking question May,

The Tories will ensure victims will wait a generation for justice and pull every stunt in the book to dodge any blame

This is dead right mate they are utter bastards,When Nye Bevan called them "lower than vermin" he was spot on.

[ben48]

it works out at about 75K per flat.

You could not build 120 homes in that part of London for that price (and let's not forget, that's including kitchens and bathrooms too etc).

 

However, there is an argument that nationally, we need to be encouraging people to move out of London, but that's another issue.

 

One of the problems with these sorts of builds/refurbs is that a main contractor wins the bid (let's say at 9 million quid). Their subcontractors are doing it for 7.5 million quid, and in turn, their subcontractors are doing it for about 5 million quid. In the construction industry, there's a lot of sub-contracting going on, thus each tier is adding on their own profit margin. Right at the bottom, the actual workforce often comprises of a lot of low paid construction workers, many of whom are from Eastern Europe and struggle with the language - they have 1 or 2 decent English speakers who translate for the others.

 

On site, there's usually a massive pressure to 'get in, and get out as quickly as possible' and many trades don't give a toss about other trades. It's a first come, first served basis for getting electrics / plumbing / heating in. The sprinklers are often one of the last things to go in, and 100% guarantee that the aesthetics of lighting positions take priority over sprinkler head positions. That means that whilst nobody's breaking the law, and sprinkler heads should still be in acceptable positions, they are not in their optimal positions. This is usually because halogen or led lights, or corridor lights need to 'look nice' and be aligned perfectly down the centre etc, the sprinklers get shoved to the side.

 

The sprinkler guys will be given a room dimension on the plans and ceiling height (IF they are lucky) and have to do their designs based on that... but once the room is populated with furniture, someone could put a huge wardrobe or cabinet under a sprinkler and inhibit its performance dramatically. I've been on a job recently in a Fire Station of all places, where hanging lights have been put under the sprinklers, inhibiting their performance. I kid you not.

I get a lot of what you say Fan and a lot of it makes sense.I was in engineering and building all my working life including looking after sprinkler systems and pumps.Lets stand back a bit 75k per flat,fuck me I know what trade prices are,how the fuck can they justify that,think what you could do to a three bed semi with 75k.What I'm saying is,as usual some piggies have got themselves in the trough at the detriment of the poor fuckers that lived there.

[ben48]

it works out at about 75K per flat.

You could not build 120 homes in that part of London for that price (and let's not forget, that's including kitchens and bathrooms too etc).

 

However, there is an argument that nationally, we need to be encouraging people to move out of London, but that's another issue.

 

One of the problems with these sorts of builds/refurbs is that a main contractor wins the bid (let's say at 9 million quid). Their subcontractors are doing it for 7.5 million quid, and in turn, their subcontractors are doing it for about 5 million quid. In the construction industry, there's a lot of sub-contracting going on, thus each tier is adding on their own profit margin. Right at the bottom, the actual workforce often comprises of a lot of low paid construction workers, many of whom are from Eastern Europe and struggle with the language - they have 1 or 2 decent English speakers who translate for the others.

 

On site, there's usually a massive pressure to 'get in, and get out as quickly as possible' and many trades don't give a toss about other trades. It's a first come, first served basis for getting electrics / plumbing / heating in. The sprinklers are often one of the last things to go in, and 100% guarantee that the aesthetics of lighting positions take priority over sprinkler head positions. That means that whilst nobody's breaking the law, and sprinkler heads should still be in acceptable positions, they are not in their optimal positions. This is usually because halogen or led lights, or corridor lights need to 'look nice' and be aligned perfectly down the centre etc, the sprinklers get shoved to the side.

 

The sprinkler guys will be given a room dimension on the plans and ceiling height (IF they are lucky) and have to do their designs based on that... but once the room is populated with furniture, someone could put a huge wardrobe or cabinet under a sprinkler and inhibit its performance dramatically. I've been on a job recently in a Fire Station of all places, where hanging lights have been put under the sprinklers, inhibiting their performance. I kid you not.

I get a lot of what you say Fan and a lot of it makes sense.I was in engineering and building all my working life including looking after sprinkler systems and pumps.Lets stand back a bit 75k per flat,fuck me I know what trade prices are,how the fuck can they justify that,think what you could do to a three bed semi with 75k.What I'm saying is,as usual some piggies have got themselves in the trough at the detriment of the poor fuckers that lived there.

[FanchesterCity]

I get a lot of what you say Fan and a lot of it makes sense.I was in engineering and building all my working life including looking after sprinkler systems and pumps.Lets stand back a bit 75k per flat,fuck me I know what trade prices are,how the fuck can they justify that,think what you could do to a three bed semi with 75k.What I'm saying is,as usual some piggies have got themselves in the trough at the detriment of the poor fuckers that lived there.

 

Yeah I don't disagree... you can't build a house in London for 75K, but 75K per apartment seems a lot of money. Sadly, something that big will have an architect and a project management team etc etc and will probably last a year - so there's a few hundred thousand in that alone! And you can't really blame all the trades for making a profit - that's what trades do, but it's the layers of businesses and subcontractors where (in my opinion) a lot of the money goes.

 

Once you factor in all the cost of a new plant room, and central heating etc, they maybe, just maybe, you're talking 50K per flat but even that seems hugely expensive. Then again, with some contracts like this, you can't just get a local plumber in, you have to get a big contract plumber in (someone with enough staff to do the job). They might be based 50 miles across the other side of London, and they're having to pay for lads in van to stay overnight, or travel every day to site / pay for parking etc etc, and all that is going into the cost too. The economies of scale are supposed to make a refurb cheaper than a one off (say at your home), but it seems they are actually more expensive!

 

I'm just thinking out aloud here - but here's an example:

 

A contractor is hired to do the tiling in the bathrooms. It takes the tiler 1 day to a bathroom, start to finish. Because he works for a large tiling contract firm, he's based in Watford, and not round the corner. Each day he travels 40 miles in, and 40 miles out, and has to pay 20 quid a day to park in London. His firm are probably charging 60-80 quid a day before he lifts a single finger. There's 120 flats, so that's 120 man days to tile them. 120 * 60 quid = 7200 quid without actually doing a damn thing. The dry liners will be similar, as will the electricians, the decorators, the sprinkler guys... You're talking hundreds of thousands of pounds spent purely on commuting the lads!