Grenfall Tower Fire

[Chip Butty]

This old woman on Sky News is immense.

 

You dirty, sick bastard 

[Cardie]

You dirty, sick bastard 

You know you would.

[FanchesterCity]

There are specific calculations depending on room size, height, risk  etc. If you were to look at how you would or should, layout a building to be fully protected by sprinklers forming part of a fire suppression system - you'd probably have to go to another country!

To be honest, I'll be checking the next hotel I go into to see if they have them, my minds eye tells me I've never seen a suppression sprinkler head in any hotel or block of flats in this country I've ever been in?

 

They are usually concealed, usually behind a round disc the looks like a halogen light fitting without a bulb.

[Anubis]

The point is that a corporation looking after a building still faces the same issues you and I do in a household - they have a limited budget and choosing where to spend that is not always so easy.

If you said to residents 'we can cut your fuel bills by 50% by adding insulation or we can fit sprinklers' - you'd have a high number saying 'forget the sprinklers as we will probably never need them, and I reckon we can get out of the building if we hear an alarm anyway'.

 

Now there's been a disaster, of course everybody's screaming about the sprinklers vs the cladding, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If you or I had the same budget, and faced the same issue - help to alleviate the fuel bills of deprived residents, or fit sprinklers - what would we choose? I'm really not convinced we'd have chosen sprinklers if we'd been asked a week ago.

No, I'm sorry, it doesn't work, and it doesn't work because your analogy is dishonest.

 

Kensington & Chelsea had a projected budget reserve of approximately £167m for 2016/17, which has actually come in at nearer £209m. So if your analogy was anywhere near correct, a householder would be looking at spending £5k on a sprinkler system from the £290k they have sitting in a bank. And if everyone had been given mtiple pieces of credible advice about protecting their family's safety, I think the vast majority would go with spending the extra 5k.

[Dougie Do'ins]

Sprinklers are fitted to all apartments and most rooms within those apartments depending on size of room. Corridors are often protected but not always and depends on distance to exit, number of exits etc. They aren't fitted in stairwells.

 

The sprinklers are usually only rated for 30 mins and only for 2 or 3 heads activating for the entire building... Effectively to allow exit from the specific flat and containment of the fire, not to extinguish it.

Only the heads affected by the heat will activate and if more than a few activate, the pressure will drop and they will cease to be effective.

Surly there'd be booster pumps to keep the pressure up.

[Chip Butty]

Surly there'd be booster pumps to keep the pressure up.

 

You usually have a combination depending on the size of the installation. Rule of thumb is usually two diesel and one electric, to cover all eventualities. 

[Chip Butty]

You know you would.

 

Only for the experience

[FanchesterCity]

Sprinklers operate independently from the fire alarm system.

Smoke or heat usually triggers the fire alarm first... Later the heat gets to the sprinkler bulb and shatters it, thus actuating the spray from that sprinkler only, an entirely mechanical process.

 

If a sprinkler is activated by accident, damage or heat before the smoke or heat detectors, then a water flow switch in the sprinkler system will trigger the fire alarm.

 

If an apartment is redesigned, the sprinkler system needs to be reassessed to ensure the sprinkler positions are still appropriate and sufficient in number.

[FanchesterCity]

You usually have a combination depending on the size of the installation. Rule of thumb is usually two diesel and one electric, to cover all eventualities.

 

Towns main can be used if sufficient flow and pressure can be achieved, but usually on a large building it cannot, so a water tank and pump are installed also. The water tank capacity is usually half an hours worth for the necessary flow rate... A typical tank is about 6ft by 6ft by 6ft, and multiple tanks might be needed for a big tower.

Again though, this is based on a small number of sprinklers activating. I.e 2 or 3, anything more than that and the system is compromised.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

The revolution has started.

 

Fuck the Tories and their captialism and austerity.

 

Live stream of one of the protests going on at the moment.

 

https://www.pscp.tv/broderick/1jMJgovYPeOJL

 

Another huge protest and march planned for tomorrow.

 

Power to the people!!!

[Guest Pistonbroke]

The revolution has started.

 

Fuck the Tories and their captialism and austerity.

 

Live stream of one of the protests going on at the moment.

 

https://www.pscp.tv/broderick/1jMJgovYPeOJL

 

Another huge protest and march planned for tomorrow.

 

Power to the people!!!

 

Had to switch it off, the live comments feed has far too many racist bell ends spouting their racist drivel. 

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

Had to switch it off, the live comments feed has far too many racist bell ends spouting their racist drivel. 

 

Not even reading that shit.

[FanchesterCity]

Surly there'd be booster pumps to keep the pressure up.

Nope, the pump is only to supply enough water from a tank through a given number of heads for a given period of time.

If 10 heads activate instead of the 5 allowed for, then there would only be half the length of time, and likely not enough pressure either... Which affects the sprinkler head performance.

The pump can only pump out what's in the tank... After that, it's game over.

[Dougie Do'ins]

Nope, the pump is only to supply enough water from a tank through a given number of heads for a given period of time.

If 10 heads activate instead of the 5 allowed for, then there would only be half the length of time, and likely not enough pressure either... Which affects the sprinkler head performance.

The pump can only pump out what's in the tank... After that, it's game over.

And what provides water to the tank ?

[FanchesterCity]

No, I'm sorry, it doesn't work, and it doesn't work because your analogy is dishonest.

Kensington & Chelsea had a projected budget reserve of approximately £167m for 2016/17, which has actually come in at nearer £209m. So if your analogy was anywhere near correct, a householder would be looking at spending £5k on a sprinkler system from the £290k they have sitting in a bank. And if everyone had been given mtiple pieces of credible advice about protecting their family's safety, I think the vast majority would go with spending the extra 5k.

They wouldn't. Most households don't maintain their smoke alarms, for the price of a battery.

 

Any local authority still has to split their budget. It's too easy to say sprinklers should have been fitted after the fact, but 200k on 100 tower blocks is 20 million, and how many lives could be saved spending 200 million on a hospital?

 

You can't cheery pick to fit sprinklers in this block because it was the one that caught fire, you have to fit them in all similar towers because any one of them could have been 'the one'.

 

How many towers have not gone up in flames? Thousands. That's where the difficulty lies. 20 million on 'it might'. There's another 20 million on 'it might flood' too. Someone ultimately has to make a judgment call, and I don't believe it's as easy as some think.

[Boss]

[FanchesterCity]

And what provides water to the tank ?

Towns mains feeds the tank, but the tank is there because the mains can't deliver the required pressure and flow. The tanks are sized to take into account that as it is draining (quickly), the mains is topping it up (slowly), but after x minutes, the tank will be empty and the mains can no longer deliver.

[Dougie Do'ins]

They wouldn't. Most households don't maintain their smoke alarms, for the price of a battery.

 

Really. Where's the evidence to support that ? I don't maintain our smoke alarms because the fuckers were always going off when I didn't want them too.

[KMD7]

Just saw that interview with the family of missing man Hesham Rahman.  I'm not sure I could remain so dignified given the circumstances. Fabulous people.  I hope they can all get some news soon about their loved ones

[FanchesterCity]

Really. Where's the evidence to support that ? I don't maintain our smoke alarms because the fuckers were always going off when I didn't want them too.

Ha! You knew what I meant! It's only the price of a battery to keep them working so not costly.

But yes, you illustrate the point well, for one reason or another loads of people don't use their smoke or heat detectors, or have enough of them.

[FanchesterCity]

Using phone, so typing is crap!

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Ha! You knew what I meant! It's only the price of a battery to keep them working so not costly.

But yes, you illustrate the point well, for one reason or another loads of people don't use their smoke or heat detectors, or have enough of them.

 

We have 6 smoke alarms and two Carbon Monoxide alarms in our house. I check them once a fortnight, it only takes 5 minutes. They also have a built in system that lets you know if the battery is getting weak as they emit a lower peep every 30 seconds when that is the case. It's actually law over here in Germany to have smoke alarms fitted, no alarms and the insurance companies won't pay out. 

[FanchesterCity]

It always inspires and frustrates me how those who have so little, still manage to cling on to dignity.

Those who have so much seem to lose any hold on theirs.

[VladimirIlyich]

We have 6 smoke alarms and two Carbon Monoxide alarms in our house. I check them once a fortnight, it only takes 5 minutes. They also have a built in system that lets you know if the battery is getting weak as they emit a lower peep every 30 seconds when that is the case. It's actually law over here in Germany to have smoke alarms fitted, no alarms and the insurance companies won't pay out.

Very similar in my house and its only about a 12 foot drop from the upstairs windows to the pavements front and back. A no brainer for about £5 a smoke alarm and about £25 for a carbon monoxide sensor.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

It always inspires and frustrates me how those who have so little, still manage to cling on to dignity.

Those who have so much seem to lose any hold on theirs.

 

People with less tend to cling together and put more effort into family/communities. Not always the case, but it is with many.