Grenfall Tower Fire

[Creator Supreme]

Who would join the emergency services in this country? What a fucking thankless task! I'm sure there'll be the usual bantz about them spending most of their work day playing pool appearing again soon!

 

Cunt cuntry, cunt species!

[Anubis]

I’m not sure the report is quite the attack it’s being made out to be.

The report isn’t attacking the rank and file firefighters. From what I’ve read it’s criticised the management for not having trained it’s firefighters specifically for cladding fires and how quickly they spread. Due to a number of such fires around the world training had been proposed but not implemented.

 

It has criticised the commander on the ground that he didn’t order evacuation earlier or deploy extended breathing apparatus earlier.

 

The report actually praises the men and women on the ground and the control centre staff.

[sir roger]

That is not coming across in the reporting headlines though which I suspect was the whole idea.

 

If a person were asked to arrange an enquiry into any random disaster surely the first question would be ' How & why did it happen ? ' not ' How did we react ? '

[polymerpunkah]

1 hour ago, Anubis said:

I’m not sure the report is quite the attack it’s being made out to be.

The report isn’t attacking the rank and file firefighters. From what I’ve read it’s criticised the management for not having trained it’s firefighters specifically for cladding fires and how quickly they spread. Due to a number of such fires around the world training had been proposed but not implemented.

 

It has criticised the commander on the ground that he didn’t order evacuation earlier or deploy extended breathing apparatus earlier.

 

The report actually praises the men and women on the ground and the control centre staff.

The old adage "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" springs to mind.

 

Why, if they knew that such cladding fires spread so quickly, did they not do something about the cladding itself beforehand?

 

Or is that one of the questions they've shuffled to the back of the queue as it turns the spotlight on the people actually in charge?

[Bjornebye]

"Shit we are to blame here"

 

"Quick pass it" 

[Moctezuma]

The thing I find most revealing about this is the structure of the inquiry, an actual cover-up of that scale is probably impossible in the period post Hillsborough so instead they decided to structure it so that the fire services gets absolutely lambasted first and the media narrative centres around that and then the cladding and building frame work stuff can wait until later an probably be released to lesser fan fare, I wonder which of these elements of the root cause is directly linked to Conservative party members, government policy decisions and local conservative councillors?

[Creator Supreme]

Just been watching the news, the bereaved families seem to have bought in to blaming the fire brigade hook, line, and sinker. Most of their understandable ire is aimed at the leadership of the fire brigade, but some was aimed at the fire fighters!

[Bjornebye]

17 minutes ago, Creator Supreme said:

Just been watching the news, the bereaved families seem to have bought in to blaming the fire brigade hook, line, and sinker. Most of their understandable ire is aimed at the leadership of the fire brigade, but some was aimed at the fire fighters!

I watched Victoria Derbyshire this morning and have seen reports on the news throughout the day. Would you put it past the government sending people around to families and selling them that its the emergency response fault and not the actual cause of the fire? I wouldn't. One lady was getting interviewed and she was calling for resignations etc and slating the response then a minute later said she hadn't had a chance to read the report. 

[Creator Supreme]

1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

I watched Victoria Derbyshire this morning and have seen reports on the news throughout the day. Would you put it past the government sending people around to families and selling them that its the emergency response fault and not the actual cause of the fire? I wouldn't. One lady was getting interviewed and she was calling for resignations etc and slating the response then a minute later said she hadn't had a chance to read the report. 

I think she was on the news report I saw. No mention of that lethal fucking cladding, all forgotten about now.

 

I wouldn't be a firefighter for all of King Midas' silver!

[Duff Man]

1 hour ago, Istvan Kosma said:

it isn't the cladding as such but more to do with the insulation board, it's an open vented system so once it's on fire the flames spread very quick... It's why in construction insulation boards are out at the min and quilt insulation is back...

 

 

The inquiry says pretty much the opposite. From the Graun:

 

The main reason for the spread of the fire were the cladding panels, manufactured by Arconic, “with polyethylene cores, which had high calorific value, melted and acted as a source of fuel for the growing fire”. The design of the refurbishment, overseen by Studio E Architects, as well as the insulation materials made by Celotex and Kingspan, also contributed, he said.

[Duff Man]

8 minutes ago, Istvan Kosma said:

Yeah the PE core which used to be described as insulation then filler and now core is the problem as is the insulation boards with air and ignition.. The government seemed to take issue in the wording of the PE in the panel, some reports on it by the BRE seemed to change quite a bit... 

The cladding isn't insulation. It's really important to make that distinction.

 

The government have tried to make out that their official documentation relating to ‘insulation materials/products’, which states “insulation product, filler material etc” must be of limited combustibility, covered external cladding. This is disputed by industry figures, because the cladding performs no insulating function.

[Duff Man]

15 minutes ago, Istvan Kosma said:

The cladding contains a PE core which will have a percentage of minerals but it's really thin so has no high function of insulation, it is important to say the government called the core insulation in letters sent to councils.

Now if it's not insulation then why would it need to pass a limited combustability test? Plenty of ACMS have a higher mineral content and would not go up like the PE panel used but regardless the PE is still an insulant. 

  

Industry experts say otherwise.

[Duff Man]

You stated the main reason for the spread of the fire was the insulation board, instead of the cladding. Again, the inquiry concluded the exact opposite:

 

"The main reason for the spread of the fire were the cladding panels, manufactured by Arconic, “with polyethylene cores, which had high calorific value, melted and acted as a source of fuel for the growing fire”. The design of the refurbishment, overseen by Studio E Architects, as well as the insulation materials made by Celotex and Kingspan, also contributed, he said."

[Duff Man]

You seem utterly incapable of debating a very simple point. Again, you said that the main reason for the spread of the fire wasn't the cladding. The inquiry found that it was.

[Butch]

On 29/10/2019 at 11:23, Dougie Do'ins said:

Though week for the fire brigade. First they're accused of being racist, and now they're accused of being incompetent. 

 

Talk about being hung out to dry.

Unfortunately they will be the scape goats. 

The main point here is that the cheapest cladding was used. Each of the flats are just concrete cells and any fire will be contained within that cell, if you have highly combustible material just outside the window it's going to go up in flames giving nobody a chance of escape. 

Delaying the inquiry is something that goes on and is designed that way. Hillsborough for example. It's a disgrace that they promised to replace all cladding on flats around the country but nothing is done. Its only a matter of time before it happens somewhere else. More folks dying while builders cut corners. 

[Rico1304]

21 minutes ago, Butch said:

Unfortunately they will be the scape goats. 

The main point here is that the cheapest cladding was used. Each of the flats are just concrete cells and any fire will be contained within that cell, if you have highly combustible material just outside the window it's going to go up in flames giving nobody a chance of escape. 

Delaying the inquiry is something that goes on and is designed that way. Hillsborough for example. It's a disgrace that they promised to replace all cladding on flats around the country but nothing is done. Its only a matter of time before it happens somewhere else. More folks dying while builders cut corners. 

Where’s the delay? The fire was June 17 and the inquiry started Sept 17. It’s taken 2 yrs and the first stage report is done.  

[Butch]

45 minutes ago, Istvan Kosma said:

Why do you assume it's the builders? The council held the purse strings..

 

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2019-05-29/grenfell-council-had-129m-it-could-have-spent-on-tower-renovation

It's both, the council for cutting costs and the builders should have advised them of the possibility of a potential fire hazard, after all they are supposed to be professional,but when there is money involved and competition things will be overlooked. I'm sure the tiles were purely cosmetic and the issues with no fire rating wasn't a problem until it became one. 

What I'm saying is that it's easy to blame the firefighters,how could they have been prepared to deal with anything like that. Even if it happened again what can be done to save the inhabitants. 

With a fire inside the building it can be deal with conventionally but the intire building burning outside changes everything. 

[polymerpunkah]

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Not the most important issue, but could some mods correct the spelling in the thread title, please.

 

It seems disrespectful to leave it as it is. 

[sir roger]

steve-bell-grenfell-tower-inquiry-outcome-cartoon.htm

[Stickman]

Let's hope one day Mogg gets locked in a burning mansion

 

 

[Dougie Do'ins]

14 minutes ago, Stickman said:

Let's hope one day Mogg gets locked in a burning mansion

 

 

I'm no fan if him but he doesn't actually say that does he ?

[Stickman]

50 minutes ago, Dougie Do'ins said:

I'm no fan if him but he doesn't actually say that does he ?

"I think if either of us were in a fire whatever the fire brigade said we'd leave the burning building it just seems the common sense thing to do"

 

Sounds like he did to me..

 

If I'm ever in an unfolding disaster hopefully I'm with cool as ice John McClane Mogg

[Bjornebye]

1 hour ago, Stickman said:

Let's hope one day Mogg gets locked in a burning mansion

 

 

They haven't allowed comments on this article on the Daily Heil. Shithouses. 

[Strontium]

It seems like the sensible thing to do, but people trusted the fire brigade's advice.