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Virgil Van Dijk

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14 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

Who though? Genuinely interested who you think we could have got?


I dont watch anywhere near enough football to know who would be best suited. But I’m sure there are at least a handful of CBs out there in the 21-23 age bracket that would fit the bill. Ibrahima Konate?

 

Genuine question in return, do you have a good overview and think no young CB out there is good enough?

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Surely every time you replace a player you would hope he contributes more than the last fella? 


I genuinly dont totally see very many signings as replacing a particular player. I’d rather think of it as building a team and squad and adding to the players you already have.

 

Certainly in the case of Lallana I dont really see a logic of looking for a replacement. If Alisson was sold then sure, we’d need to replace him, but Lallana?

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10 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

Chirivella played 1 league game for us in his entire Liverpool career!

 

Lallana played, 12, 13 and 15 league games in his last 3 seasons. He had a bit part role. We didn't sign Thiago as a bit part player.

 

Jones has taken the bit part player role of Lallana. Thiago was signed to start, with Henderson and Fabinho competing for the same positions. 

Chiravella would have played more if he wasn't pretty crap. This is the point of the kid in the squad - he gets a chance, he takes it or not. Chiravella didn't. Jones did, which is why Chiravella plays elsewhere. I agree we haven't signed thiago to play a bit part, we signed him to play when he's fit, but his injury record suggests he still might not play a lot. And milner will play less, Henderson will probably not play more and most likely less as he struggles with injuries and we'll be fading Gini out. You mentioned just a few posts back you thought fabinho was dropped for thiago, but you saw from today's team that's not true. What we didn't sign thiago for is for fabinho to play 30 games at centre back, not least because thiago doesn't have a terrific record of fitness himself. 

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1 minute ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:


I dont watch anywhere near enough football to know who would be best suited. But I’m sure there are at least a handful of CBs out there in the 21-23 age bracket that would fit the bill. Ibrahima Konate?

 

Genuine question in return, do you have a good overview and think no young CB out there is good enough?

 

 

Its not that I don't think they are players that are good enough, its more that I think we went in to this season happy with our 3 centre backs and not thinking that it was worth splashing the cash on a player to be 3rd/4th choice.

 

Look at how much money United and City have spent on centre backs in recent years. The likes of James Tarkowski and Ben White are valued at £50 million plus these days! According to google Konate would cost a similar amount also. 

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Fabinho was clearly earmarked for 4th choice, with about 15 games to play there like Lovren did last season. I still fail to see how that thinking was irresponsible, especially with Thiago coming in. 

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24 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

If everybody stayed fit this season, I expected Fabinho to lose his place. Our best midfield is Henderson, Thiago and Widjnaldum, with Fabinho, Keta, Milner, Oxlade, and Jones waiting in the wings. 

 

VVD hasn't missed a game for us through injury since signing. It was impossible to predict that some cunt would go through him like Pickford did. 

I do get that but at same time it is fair to say Oxlade, Keita and Thiago have pretty poor injury records....add in Matip having one too and Gomez is not exactly rock solid when it comes to being available and i just feel a proper 4th centre half rather than pulling a midfielder back would have been better.

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2 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

Its not that I don't think they are players that are good enough, its more that I think we went in to this season happy with our 3 centre backs and not thinking that it was worth splashing the cash on a player to be 3rd/4th choice.

 

Look at how much money United and City have spent on centre backs in recent years. The likes of James Tarkowski and Ben White are valued at £50 million plus these days! According to google Konate would cost a similar amount also. 


I understand the logic, and guess also Klopps thinking of keeping the squad happy plays a role here. And Klopps judgement is normally not bad, but in this case I really struggle to agree. 

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2 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Chiravella would have played more if he wasn't pretty crap. This is the point of the kid in the squad - he gets a chance, he takes it or not. Chiravella didn't. Jones did, which is why Chiravella plays elsewhere. I agree we haven't signed thiago to play a bit part, we signed him to play when he's fit, but his injury record suggests he still might not play a lot. And milner will play less, Henderson will probably not play more and most likely less as he struggles with injuries and we'll be fading Gini out. You mentioned just a few posts back you thought fabinho was dropped for thiago, but you saw from today's team that's not true. What we didn't sign thiago for is for fabinho to play 30 games at centre back, not least because thiago doesn't have a terrific record of fitness himself. 

 

Due to the thrashing we took last time out, and because Everton has won all four games so far we were always likely to play 3 more defensively minded players today. As the season progresses I expect it to be 2 from 3 of Thiago, Henderson and Fabinho, with Fabinho likely to be third choice if it was a big game. 

 

What we saw in the Chelsea game was that Fabinho is essentially the 4th choice centre back.  Personally I am ok with this. He's got all the attributes to play there. 

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4 minutes ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:


I genuinly dont totally see very many signings as replacing a particular player. I’d rather think of it as building a team and squad and adding to the players you already have.

 

Certainly in the case of Lallana I dont really see a logic of looking for a replacement. If Alisson was sold then sure, we’d need to replace him, but Lallana?

I think we're very much a team that has a number of places for senior players. I think we pretty much like to do 1 for 1 replacements. It's not a perfect world, so sometimes you can't sell someone or sometimes you can't buy someone when someone leaves, but that's our target. Thiago is using lallana's peg in the dressing room. He won't contribute the same, but he's using a seat and klopp likes to run quite a tight ship. For those reasons thiago has replaced lallana and in the same.way Kostas replaced lallana even though they play different positions. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think we're very much a team that has a number of places for senior players. I think we pretty much like to do 1 for 1 replacements. It's not a perfect world, so sometimes you can't sell someone or sometimes you can't buy someone when someone leaves, but that's our target. Thiago is using lallana's peg in the dressing room. He won't contribute the same, but he's using a seat and klopp likes to run quite a tight ship. For those reasons thiago has replaced lallana and in the same.way Kostas replaced lallana even though they play different positions. 

 


If that’s how you define replacing I more or less agree. Klopp certainly doesnt seem to want too large a squad.

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I suspect Centre back was/Is the next area that we are looking to address, but we didn't have enough money this summer to bring someone in, and felt that left back, midfield and a wide forward were more important areas to sort out.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, MegadriveMan said:

 

Due to the thrashing we took last time out, and because Everton has won all four games so far we were always likely to play 3 more defensively minded players today. As the season progresses I expect it to be 2 from 3 of Thiago, Henderson and Fabinho, with Fabinho likely to be third choice if it was a big game. 

 

What we saw in the Chelsea game was that Fabinho is essentially the 4th choice centre back.  Personally I am ok with this. He's got all the attributes to play there. 

It's pretty easy to say that now vvd is fucked! He'll play more than Gomez and matip because they can't stay fit. Fabinho played Chelsea because there was nobody else, they were all injured! I'm not disputing he will be used as 4th choice or that was the plan. I just don't think the aim of the game was to make him a defender. It's just klopp doing what he likes to do and load up the midfield and hope they can fill the gaps. I think it's a pretty reasonable position too. I just also think it's pretty reasonable considering the injury record of Gomez and matip that for once it could bite us on the arse. Although I think you can say the lack of quality cover in goal last season cost us a better run in the CL and lack of full back cover in 18/19 contributed to the run of draws that cost us the title that season. So considering squad quality and balance has been an issue in the past, coupled with a couple of flakes at centre back, it's doesn't seem radical to say that was a big risk and it looks like blowing up in our faces. 

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7 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

It's pretty easy to say that now vvd is fucked! He'll play more than Gomez and matip because they can't stay fit. Fabinho played Chelsea because there was nobody else, they were all injured! I'm not disputing he will be used as 4th choice or that was the plan. I just don't think the aim of the game was to make him a defender. It's just klopp doing what he likes to do and load up the midfield and hope they can fill the gaps. I think it's a pretty reasonable position too. I just also think it's pretty reasonable considering the injury record of Gomez and matip that for once it could bite us on the arse. Although I think you can say the lack of quality cover in goal last season cost us a better run in the CL and lack of full back cover in 18/19 contributed to the run of draws that cost us the title that season. So considering squad quality and balance has been an issue in the past, coupled with a couple of flakes at centre back, it's doesn't seem radical to say that was a big risk and it looks like blowing up in our faces. 

But what would you have done, sell Matip or Gomez and buy Koulibaly? There's no top quality CB, that comes to be 4th choice, and Klopp wouldn't have just relegated one of those two to 4th choice. To say an injury to van Dijk blew up in our face is at the same time a complete eye-roller because obviously one of the best defenders in the world getting injured stinks, but also there's just no way to mitigate that kind of risk. It's like if Messi got injured, and people said "oh Barca don't have a guy to get 40 goals and 30 assists in a season to replace him, poor planning". Like, give me a break. 

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1 minute ago, Barrington Womble said:

It's pretty easy to say that now vvd is fucked! He'll play more than Gomez and matip because they can't stay fit. Fabinho played Chelsea because there was nobody else, they were all injured! I'm not disputing he will be used as 4th choice or that was the plan. I just don't think the aim of the game was to make him a defender. It's just klopp doing what he likes to do and load up the midfield and hope they can fill the gaps. I think it's a pretty reasonable position too. I just also think it's pretty reasonable considering the injury record of Gomez and matip that for once it could bite us on the arse. Although I think you can say the lack of quality cover in goal last season cost us a better run in the CL and lack of full back cover in 18/19 contributed to the run of draws that cost us the title that season. So considering squad quality and balance has been an issue in the past, coupled with a couple of flakes at centre back, it's doesn't seem radical to say that was a big risk and it looks like blowing up in our faces. 

 

Yeah I understand. For years its been obvious that our lack of depth has been the problem, but its always likely to be a problem when competing with the likes of City, Chelsea and United who have more money than we do. 

 

We've been fortunate that most of our key players, Allison, TAA, VVD, Robertson, Salah, and Mane haven't really had long injury lay offs, and rarely been injured at the same time. 

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10 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

But what would you have done, sell Matip or Gomez and buy Koulibaly? There's no top quality CB, that comes to be 4th choice, and Klopp wouldn't have just relegated one of those two to 4th choice. To say an injury to van Dijk blew up in our face is at the same time a complete eye-roller because obviously one of the best defenders in the world getting injured stinks, but also there's just no way to mitigate that kind of risk. It's like if Messi got injured, and people said "oh Barca don't have a guy to get 40 goals and 30 assists in a season to replace him, poor planning". Like, give me a break. 

Is it really that difficult an ask for a club of our standing to have a 4th proper specialist senior centre half?

 

Especially given that 1 of our 3 and arguably 2 is/are pretty injury prone.

 

It's OK saying Fabinho is 4th choice and he has of course and will do a job there, but when he has to it weakens our midfield options.

 

Lovren was 4th choice last season and played 15 games in all comps - it is no stretch at all to suggest our 4th choice this season would likely play at least as many this season, especially given the condensed nature of the schedule this season.

 

Here we are a mere 5 games in and Fabinho has already been needed at centre half.

 

Neither Matip or Gomez have ever managed to play in 30 league games in a season for us....some of that is down to them being rotated - it is mostly down to them having poor injury records.

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3 minutes ago, an tha said:

Is it really that difficult an ask for a club of our standing to have a 4th proper specialist senior centre half?

 

Especially given that 1 of our 3 and arguably 2 is/are pretty injury prone.

 

It's OK saying Fabinho is 4th choice and he has of course and will do a job there, but when he has to it weakens our midfield options.

 

Lovren was 4th choice last season and played 15 games in all comps - it is no stretch at all to suggest our 4th choice this season would likely play at least as many this season, especially given the condensed nature of the schedule this season.

 

Here we are a mere 5 games in and Fabinho has already been needed at centre half.

 

Neither Matip or Gomez have ever managed to play in 30 league games in a season for us.

But who cares? What the fuck difference does having a "4th specialist CB" solve when the best centre back in the world tore his knee? Is that 4th CB van Dijk's clone? 

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8 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

But who cares? What the fuck difference does having a "4th specialist CB" solve when the best centre back in the world tore his knee? Is that 4th CB van Dijk's clone? 

Since when have cover players had to be as good as the first choice? Just good solid cover that offers depth when needed is surely enough.

 

And in answer to your question what difference does it make - well erm how about you don't have to weaken options elsewhere on park and you have proper cover on bench in games when down to 2 like we are now.

 

You seem to be totally overlooking just how unreliable at least one of our 3 proper centre halves are.

 

We had 4 last year and 4th choice played in over a quarter of our league games...personally i think our 4th choice was always likely to play at least that many games this season - and i'd rather he was a proper centre half than a midfielder pulled back to do a job and whilst doing it reduce our options in midfield.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

But who cares? What the fuck difference does having a "4th specialist CB" solve when the best centre back in the world tore his knee? Is that 4th CB van Dijk's clone? 

 

I think it's more the point that we might need one - no, not as good as VVD of course - but as a viable option... given the two "fit" ones are often enough sick notes, the 3rd one is makeshift (plus a very good midfielder) and of course, this crazy covid/international bullshit schedule that will no doubt see us throw away another FA Cup run, while one of the other top 6 win it.

 

Anyway, without VVD and Allison for the next run of games, we could be fucked regardless in the scheme of this season.

 

Mane, Salah, (Firmino) and Jota are going to need to score a truck load of goals to keep us in it I reckon.  

 

Last couple of seasons, generally, two goals were certain to do the trick for us.  But already this season we've needed 4 goals to win a game - and twice we've scored 2 goals with only a point in total to show for those.

 

Thank God Mo and Mane look on, and Jota looks a definite scorer too.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, an tha said:

Since when have cover players had to be as good as the first choice? Just good solid cover that offers depth when needed is surely enough.

 

And in answer to your question what difference does it make - well erm how about you don't have to weaken options elsewhere on park and you have proper cover on bench in games when down to 2 like we are now.

 

You seem to be totally overlooking just how unreliable at least one of our 3 proper centre halves are.

 

We had 4 last year and 4th choice played in over a quarter of our league games...personally i think our 4th choice was always likely to play at least that many games this season - and i'd rather he was a proper centre half than a midfielder pulled back to do a job and whilst doing it reduce our options in midfield.

 

 

Firstly, "good solid cover" can't replace a top player like van Dijk and doesn't mitigate any risk of him being injured. Can't believe that has to be said. 

 

Secondly, Thiago slotting in for Fabinho to cover at centre half is not weakening any other area. Not at all. 

 

And finally, I'm not overlooking anything. Matip and Gomez are in fact unreliable for a couple different reasons, I'm fully aware. The issue is that people act like there was more than a .001 % chance that they would both be swept aside for a top centre back that is at the level of van Dijk. Would I personally have liked if one of them were sold for a great, reliable CB? Yeah, wouldn't have minded that. But was that totally unrealistic given the long contracts given to both Matip and Gomez, and the fondness that Klopp has for both of them? Also yes. So again, I think this whole conversation is misplaced. 

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Fabinho's better than most centre backs in the world. Would take him over 80% of the league's starting centre backs, if not more. To be honest our summer business was exceptional - the one piece missing was a replacement for Adrian. Infinitely more pressing than this mythical "top 4th centre back" (when was 4 top centre backs on the books at one time ever even a thing?). In lieu of that, we've played great in 4 of 5 fixtures this year. You can't legisilate for the injuries so far - you certainly can't find footballers even remotely of a similar level, even if you were paying £50 mil a pop. We're talking best-in-the-world in their positions here.

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9 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Firstly, "good solid cover" can't replace a top player like van Dijk and doesn't mitigate any risk of him being injured. Can't believe that has to be said. 

 

Secondly, Thiago slotting in for Fabinho to cover at centre half is not weakening any other area. Not at all. 

 

And finally, I'm not overlooking anything. Matip and Gomez are in fact unreliable for a couple different reasons, I'm fully aware. The issue is that people act like there was more than a .001 % chance that they would both be swept aside for a top centre back that is at the level of van Dijk. Would I personally have liked if one of them were sold for a great, reliable CB? Yeah, wouldn't have minded that. But was that totally unrealistic given the long contracts given to both Matip and Gomez, and the fondness that Klopp has for both of them? Also yes. So again, I think this whole conversation is misplaced. 

Little to no point continuing it is there.

 

We'll agree to disagree and that is sound.

 

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3 minutes ago, Alex_K said:

Fabinho's better than most centre backs in the world. Would take him over 80% of the league's starting centre backs, if not more. To be honest our summer business was exceptional - the one piece missing was a replacement for Adrian. Infinitely more pressing than this mythical "top 4th centre back" (when was 4 top centre backs on the books at one time ever even a thing?). In lieu of that, we've played great in 4 of 5 fixtures this year. You can't legisilate for the injuries so far - you certainly can't find footballers even remotely of a similar level, even if you were paying £50 mil a pop. We're talking best-in-the-world in their positions here.

 

Fair enough.  Fabinho definitely looks sound at centre-back.  Let's hope those 3 can do it between them.

 

And that Thiago holds up injury-wise.

 

 

 

 

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Fabinho, Matip and Joe Gomez is a better collection of centre halves than 95% of football clubs have.

 

We'll have to change our game slightly with VVD out, and will definitely be more susceptible at set pieces, but this is a part of football we have to accept.

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Playing this replacements game, we sold Lovren and Hoever and who replaced them? Fabinho I keep on hearing. He. Is. A. Midfielder. Yes he's done well at centre back when filling in. But we miss what he brings in midfield. That's OK, Hendo can play his position. Yes, but now we have 2 first teamers playing out of their ideal position. It just looks like a gamble that might still, just about pay off, but it's not looking good is it? 

 

Hopefully one of the kids is ready, Koumetio maybe, I really have no idea. 

 

Someone said how can we prepare for the completely unpredictable scenario of VVD getting injured? All players get injured, of course it's something you mitigate, especially this year when the fixtures are so congested. 

 

It should also be said that both Fabinho and Henderson both played CB last season when we still had Lovren and Hoever. This CB situation isn't new, Barry especially has been beating this drum for a couple years. 

 

I like both Matip and Gomez, great players, so this isn't about doubting their talent. 

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