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Joel Matip

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The club is limited by Premier League regs to the size of the squad and number of non home grown players.

 

Personally, I dont agree with the idea you need 4 dedicated centre backs at a club when you have players like Fabinho, Henderson and possibly even Milner who could play one of the positions.

 

You could argue you need 3 quality keepers at a club. In fact one year didnt we go through Reina, Doni and what's his face had to play the FA Cup semi against everton and everyone was crapping themselves?

 

Im pretty sure the club will go to market in the winter window but it's going to cost to get anyone of quality. Get that Koulibaly fella in. He'll do a good job!

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15 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Sure. I think it's fair to say to your point that not selling Wijnaldum in the last year of his deal or keeping Milner, especially now that we have cover at left back, instead of buying a 4th CB may have been a mistake. The club went in another direction. It is what it is.


It is what it is. And let’s hope Fabinho is an able deputy if or when needed.

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Didn't Fab start off as a RB? Holding a defensive line etc shouldn't be new to him and we know his other defensive capabilities. He might be a weakness in the air but we'll just have to stop the crosses coming in. 

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2 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

So what you're saying is Klopp and the club just forgot to factor someone might get injured? Bit comical that, I'm sure they're aware that was a possibility.

 

They just decided to build the squad with big numbers in midfield because of the versatility that offers. We have 8 midfielders for 3 spots. That's huge. You have to factor that in when criticizing the decisions made as it pertains to the lack of CB's in the squad. If you don't do that, it's just not fair criticism.

 

By the way, if you were to criticize the way the team is built, that would be fair. Or that Matip should have been sold or replaced because he gets injured too much. I've conceded that. You can even say we should have bought a CB instead of Thiago and that would be coherent, although I'd disagree with you. But just saying, oh we should have bought a CB is a nothing statement. It doesn't take into consideration the numbers we already had in the squad.

I think the club bet the house on vvd staying fit imo, because pretty much anyone looks like a good centre back next to him. All this "it'll be alright with fabinho" is a flawed plan as soon as there's no vvd. It's a gamble but it was a pretty big gamble. It's not the only gamble we make, we have a world class keeper who is backed up by a bloke who is pretty inadequate, but he was cheap. 

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Even with 4 senior CB options last season, we skated on thin ice a few times because the injury record of Matip and Lovren wasn't great. Someone here already asked- "how many times did we have all 4 of them fit at the same time"?. I reckon it was for less than 10 matches all season.

 

I recall Henderson had to play CB in the club world cup. And Klopp had to temporarily recall Nat Phillips to play in the FA cup against Everton. So it's clear we had issues last season, even with all 4 CBs and Fabinho registered in the squad. I dont know of any serious club going into a season without having 4 proper options at CB. Matip was always going to be a gamble.

 

So I dont understand how people want to justify letting one of those guys go without replacing (i.e Lovren, who despite not been fit regularly, still played 14 games). This is a shorter season, with fewer rest periods. The pressure on the squad was always going to be immense. If there is any season to have a 'bloated' squad, this is the one. Injuries, covid infections and fatigue are all higher risk factors this season.

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15 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think the club bet the house on vvd staying fit imo, because pretty much anyone looks like a good centre back next to him. All this "it'll be alright with fabinho" is a flawed plan as soon as there's no vvd. It's a gamble but it was a pretty big gamble. It's not the only gamble we make, we have a world class keeper who is backed up by a bloke who is pretty inadequate, but he was cheap. 

So you would have preferred not getting Thiago in favour of buying another CB, I presume? Bear in mind Thiago was an economical transfer and getting any CB that is remotely close to van Dijk's level would have cost something we  probably couldn't afford.

 

And also, what club has two world class centre backs and can adequately mitigate for the long term absence of one of them? Maybe Madrid with Ramos and Varane? Who else? Is that really a fair criticism? 

 

I don't think it's a gamble, Klopp has just built the team in a different way. The Adrian thing is a gamble, I'll give you that.

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13 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

So you would have preferred not getting Thiago in favour of buying another CB, I presume? Bear in mind Thiago was an economical transfer and getting any CB that is remotely close to van Dijk's level would have cost something we  probably couldn't afford.

 

And also, what club has two world class centre backs and can adequately mitigate for the long term absence of one of them? Maybe Madrid with Ramos and Varane? Who else? Is that really a fair criticism? 

 

I don't think it's a gamble, Klopp has just built the team in a different way. The Adrian thing is a gamble, I'll give you that.

As I've said before I wouldn't have made it this year's problem. I'd have solved it the year before when we were champions of Europe and didn't spend a fucking penny. 

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2 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

As I've said before I wouldn't have made it this year's problem. I'd have solved it the year before when we were champions of Europe and didn't spend a fucking penny. 

With Matip successfully partnering van Dijk, Gomez being a young star at the position and Lovren still in the side, you would have bought a CB that summer? Hindsight much. 

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20 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

With Matip successfully partnering van Dijk, Gomez being a young star at the position and Lovren still in the side, you would have bought a CB that summer? Hindsight much. 

I think matip and Gomez are both flakes, as was lovren who I don't think strung more than 6 games on the bounce without getting injured in his 5 or 6 years at the club. I posted here last year I would have happily sold 2 of any of our centre backs who wasn't vvd to get in one who could play and stay fit. 

 

As for their talents, I like matip, but he's only any use alongside vvd (or another strong leader type defender), we saw that plenty before vvd joined the club. And he's never fit and never has been in all his time at the club. I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep if he was sold to fund a different centre back. 

 

And as for Gomez being a young star, I realise it's not a popular opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't think he's very good. He can't read the flight of the ball, he can't jump, his positional work is poor, his close tackling is clumsy. But he has (had?) loads and loads of pace and is pretty good at the toe in recovery tackle tackle when running at full speed. But I genuinely can't remember when I last saw that burst of pace. So put it simply, while I heard a stat they've never started together as a pair, I think they'll make a particularly poor partnership. I think matip could be very good next to vvd and Gomez adequate. So with vvd there, we might be alright. Without him i think we have some problems there. That was the gamble we took, it's all about vvd being fit. 

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12 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think matip and Gomez are both flakes, as was lovren who I don't think strung more than 6 games on the bounce without getting injured in his 5 or 6 years at the club. I posted here last year I would have happily sold 2 of any of our centre backs who wasn't vvd to get in one who could play and stay fit. 

 

As for their talents, I like matip, but he's only any use alongside vvd (or another strong leader type defender), we saw that plenty before vvd joined the club. And he's never fit and never has been in all his time at the club. I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep if he was sold to fund a different centre back. 

 

And as for Gomez being a young star, I realise it's not a popular opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree, but I don't think he's very good. He can't read the flight of the ball, he can't jump, his positional work is poor, his close tackling is clumsy. But he has (had?) loads and loads of pace and is pretty good at the toe in recovery tackle tackle when running at full speed. But I genuinely can't remember when I last saw that burst of pace. So put it simply, while I heard a stat they've never started together as a pair, I think they'll make a particularly poor partnership. I think matip could be very good next to vvd and Gomez adequate. So with vvd there, we might be alright. Without him in think we have some problems there. That was the gamble we took, it's all about vvd being fit. 

You talked about wanting a CB after we won in Europe. At the time, Gomez was a young star. Now, yes, he has issues that have crept up.

 

And when Lovren was here, what exactly did you want Klopp to do? We had 4 CB's, 3 of which happen to get injured a lot but so what, should we have had 6 CB's as insurance if they all get injured? As it happens, we won the League and the Champions League with those 4. So yeah sorry, big hindsight on your part.

 

Anyway, the point is we have more midfielders than we really need and that's what Klopp does to mitigate the possible absence of a CB. It's not a gamble because that's what he believes in. It's not skimping by the club because we've invested loads in the midfield, both in quality and in numbers, to make up for having 3 CB's. Again, criticize that all you want or criticize Klopp for still believing in Matip or Gomez, because that's the reality. 

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23 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

You talked about wanting a CB after we won in Europe. At the time, Gomez was a young star. Now, yes, he has issues that have crept up.

 

And when Lovren was here, what exactly did you want Klopp to do? We had 4 CB's, 3 of which happen to get injured a lot but so what, should we have had 6 CB's as insurance if they all get injured? As it happens, we won the League and the Champions League with those 4. So yeah sorry, big hindsight on your part.

 

Anyway, the point is we have more midfielders than we really need and that's what Klopp does to mitigate the possible absence of a CB. It's not a gamble because that's what he believes in. It's not skimping by the club because we've invested loads in the midfield, both in quality and in numbers, to make up for having 3 CB's. Again, criticize that all you want or criticize Klopp for still believing in Matip or Gomez, but that's the reality. 

I've always thought Gomez was a bit shit. I've never been taken by the hype because he could run fast. I'm old enough to no longer get excited by that in a footballer and all of those weaknesses I mentioned have always been apparent in his game, it's just he got some leeway because he often played out of position and his pace got him out of jail. Loads of people now are looking at his poor performances because actually that burst of pace everyone always used to think showed he was a great defender, now he's not quite as quick just highlight his poor positioning. So no revisionism from me. As I said, you will see posts on exactly what I wanted if you're bored enough to look. I'd have sold any 2 of lovren, matip and Gomez and replaced them with a centre back. I don't know how many times I can say that, I'm definitely not saying buy 6 centre backs, but you know that and are just being a complete bellend. 

 

I'm not criticising klopp. I'm sure he's part of the the decision making process, but I'm not one who subscribes to the point of view he spends money like it is his own because he wants to. He does that because of what he's given. If you want any proof of that, he's been given a wedge once after selling coutinho and within 6 months had broke a world record for a centre back, broke the world record for a goalkeeper and chucked 40-odd million on fabinho. I am sure if he'd been given the option, he'd have had better options, he said himself in the summer centre back was a problem. We just didn't solve the problem because the money wasn't there. But perhaps it wouldn't have been a problem had we been able to spend last summer. Klopp did some squad balancing and I think I was the 1st on here to call lovren wouldn't be replaced and we would do exactly what we've done. I expected nothing else. It doesn't mean it wasn't a gamble though - and when we were arguing about this same thing just yesterday, I can see why he made the gamble. If he can pair vvd with anyone, we'll be alright. And history tells us vvd gets on the pitch and plays and plays through the pain at times, so it seems a good gamble. But instead vvd was assaulted and the gamble looks like it hasn't paid off. 

 

You might be right and Gomez is a star, matip will be sound and fabinho will fill a gap. Personally I think fabinho will play 30+ games at centre back and some of them will be alongside another player who's not a centre back. And if we're to have any chance of winning the league, we're going to need to attack like we did in 2017/18, because most weeks we'll need 3 goals to win a match. 

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13 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

You talked about wanting a CB after we won in Europe. At the time, Gomez was a young star. Now, yes, he has issues that have crept up.

 

And when Lovren was here, what exactly did you want Klopp to do? We had 4 CB's, 3 of which happen to get injured a lot but so what, should we have had 6 CB's as insurance if they all get injured? As it happens, we won the League and the Champions League with those 4. So yeah sorry, big hindsight on your part.

 

Anyway, the point is we have more midfielders than we really need and that's what Klopp does to mitigate the possible absence of a CB. It's not a gamble because that's what he believes in. It's not skimping by the club because we've invested loads in the midfield, both in quality and in numbers, to make up for having 3 CB's. Again, criticize that all you want or criticize Klopp for still believing in Matip or Gomez, because that's the reality. 

You are assuming that's what he believes in, but reality is that he is just putting up with it. He stated clearly in preseason that we have a shortage at centre back.

 

It's not about getting someone in who is at Virgil's level - I'm sure Klopp has identified other centre back with qualities that could play for us. Matip for example was a freebie.

 

It's all well and good saying Fabinho can fill in, and he can, but that was assuming he would be filling in for either Gomez or Matip who in all probability will both get injured at some point or another. One or two more injuries and were looking at a crisis in defense.

 

Saying what's the point of having 4 centre backs when only two play just doesn't cut it, and is exactly how we have ended up with Adrian in goal, by assuming he will never play anyway

 

The situation up front was exactly the same until we got Jota in and we have been extremely lucky on that front. We have had three forwards play pretty much every game with no complimentary alternative, just a couple of unwanted strikers like Origi and Sturridge. You can only get away with for so long I'm afraid. 

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13 minutes ago, ManéMan said:

You are assuming that's what he believes in, but reality is that he is just putting up with it. He stated clearly in preseason that we have a shortage at centre back.

 

It's not about getting someone in who is at Virgil's level - I'm sure Klopp has identified other centre back with qualities that could play for us. Matip for example was a freebie.

 

It's all well and good saying Fabinho can fill in, and he can, but that was assuming he would be filling in for either Gomez or Matip who in all probability will both get injured at some point or another. One or two more injuries and were looking at a crisis in defense.

 

Saying what's the point of having 4 centre backs when only two play just doesn't cut it, and is exactly how we have ended up with Adrian in goal, by assuming he will never play anyway

 

The situation up front was exactly the same until we got Jota in and we have been extremely lucky on that front. We have had three forwards play pretty much every game with no complimentary alternative, just a couple of unwanted strikers like Origi and Sturridge. You can only get away with for so long I'm afraid. 

How many posts in this thread are going to ignore the reality of how our squad is constructed? Why do we have 8 centre mids for 3 spots, yet apparently are skimping out on CB's? It's almost like that's what the plan is. 

 

That's what you should be criticizing. I'm fairly certain if Klopp wanted some random CB for depth for about 10m, he would've gotten one.

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Don't play the hindsight card with Barry about this, he has said consistently for a couple years at least that we need to add depth to our defence because of Gomez and Matip's injury record. This issue isn't new and has only been exacerbated by selling 2 CBs when we already needed Hendo to cover the position last season. This is all before our most reliably fit defender got crocked for a season. 

 

To be honest I don't get why you are so fucked off about wanting cover, not Beckenbauer but cover in a clearly prone and thin defence. 

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13 minutes ago, Remmie said:

Don't play the hindsight card with Barry about this, he has said consistently for a couple years at least that we need to add depth to our defence because of Gomez and Matip's injury record. This issue isn't new and has only been exacerbated by selling 2 CBs when we already needed Hendo to cover the position last season. This is all before our most reliably fit defender got crocked for a season. 

 

To be honest I don't get why you are so fucked off about wanting cover, not Beckenbauer but cover in a clearly prone and thin defence. 

Suggesting Barry wanted us to sell Matip or Gomez after winning the Champions League when Matip put in great performance after great performance and Gomez had shown massive talent in the league doesn't deserve any kind of praise and it's defo hindsight. And not only that, Klopp would have laughed at how callous that suggestion is.

 

And I said it already we had 4 senior CB's at the time, you just can't have more than that. We even tried to sell Lovren that summer and he wouldn't go.

 

And as for the second part, I've written posts that consecutively would form a novel in the last few days as to why we wouldn't have gotten CB depth. Maybe read those if you care?

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1 hour ago, 3 Stacks said:

How many posts in this thread are going to ignore the reality of how our squad is constructed? Why do we have 8 centre mids for 3 spots, yet apparently are skimping out on CB's? It's almost like that's what the plan is. 

 

That's what you should be criticizing. I'm fairly certain if Klopp wanted some random CB for depth for about 10m, he would've gotten one.

That's exactly why. There's 3 midfield spots against 2 CB spots so theres bound to be more centre mids in the squad. Add to that a couple are almost permanently injured and another is also an ageing squad player who is also the only left back cover we had until now. And also we may lose one (Gini) very soon.

 

It's very simple but you're over complicating things and trying to make yourself look clever but it's not working.

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2 hours ago, ManéMan said:

That's exactly why. There's 3 midfield spots against 2 CB spots so theres bound to be more centre mids in the squad. Add to that a couple are almost permanently injured and another is also an ageing squad player who is also the only left back cover we had until now. And also we may lose one (Gini) very soon.

 

It's very simple but you're over complicating things and trying to make yourself look clever but it's not working.

I have to say I’m in agreement with 3 Stacks here, he’d be the first to admit that he and I don’t really agree with him on too many of issues. We didn’t target a CH because Klopp wanted Fabinho to be the 4th choice, as he’d be comfortable moving Fabinho from CDM as Thiago is one of the best holding midfielders in the world. 

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I think we bought Thiago because we know Wijnaldum is leaving in January or next summer and Klopp believed we needed more bodies. We expect or expected Shaqiri to leave and isnt being considered anyway,AOC is always injured and Milner is not playing as much as he once did. Curtis Jones will make a few appearances I reckon but there isn't a major amount of midfielders available to play when all things are considered.

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1 minute ago, El Rojo said:

Who did Hendo play centre half against last season? Can’t remember how he did. 

Thought he played right back once alright but dont remember him at CB

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9 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think the club bet the house on vvd staying fit imo, because pretty much anyone looks like a good centre back next to him. All this "it'll be alright with fabinho" is a flawed plan as soon as there's no vvd. It's a gamble but it was a pretty big gamble. It's not the only gamble we make, we have a world class keeper who is backed up by a bloke who is pretty inadequate, but he was cheap. 

I don't think it was an unreasonable gamble. The chap has been consistently fit for near on 3 years. He was bullet proof until mongo man came along. We had 3 CB's including Fab to cover 1 spot. We haven't added to that area in 3 years so it's safe to assume it was on the menu for next summer. The plan was sound, the squad is the best it's ever been. Hence the fact we will still win the league without the worlds best defender.

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