Joel Matip

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, mgw100 said:

Whichever way you look at it, we had 5 senior options last year at CB and only 4 this year. We had plenty of senior midfield cover last year too so not sure why you are only including Fabinho in the CB stocks for this year.

i think fabinho got a software update in the summer. last year his data was just RB, DM, MF and after some PEDs and software updates he has now added DC to his list of attributes. 

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Barrington Womble said:

i think fabinho got a software update in the summer. last year his data was just RB, DM, MF and after some PEDs and software updates he has now added DC to his list of attributes. 

Still got a ways to go to catch Wiji and Milner.

[mgw100]

1 hour ago, 3 Stacks said:

Because Fabinho wasn't seen as a CB last season but we clearly prepared this season with him as a real CB option in mind and we added a midfielder to make up for that.

 

But he played at CB last year. Twice I think when we had lots of injuries.. So was used as cover

[3 Stacks]

8 minutes ago, mgw100 said:

But he played at CB last year. Twice I think when we had lots of injuries.. So was used as cover

Sure, but those were emergencies. The problem with the argument we lack cover is that if we had bought a CB that is in the upper echelon of talent without selling either Matip or Gomez, when everyone's fit, one of them wouldn't have even made the bench.

 

Or if you sign a stopgap to replace Lovren, same thing, might not make the bench. Now people will say, well Matip gets injured a lot so we would have never had that problem. Well then the issue is more with Klopp and the club because they have had no issue trusting Matip and his fitness.

 

So the only acceptable argument is maybe we should have sold and replaced Matip. Because as our squad is currently constituted, with Thiago and the depth we have in midfield, having 4 senior CB's made no sense. Too many bodies.

[TheHowieLama]

Carrying a 4th CB would mean we lose who off the squad - Shaqiri?

 

It would be interesting to see how many games all 4 CB's were available last season. Don't know how to look it up but it can't be more than about 6 - even then one will have been just coming back.

Lovren was unavailable more often than not.

 

 

We know already how many it will be for this season.

[3 Stacks]

6 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Carrying a 4th CB would mean we lose who off the squad - Shaqiri?

 

It would be interesting to see how many games all 4 CB's were available last season. Don't know how to look it up but it can't be more than about 6 - even then one will have been just coming back.

Lovren was unavailable more often than not.

 

 

We know already how many it will be for this season.

That's another argument I'd be willing to hear. Maybe we should have sold and sacrificed a midfielder, maybe Wijnaldum, and have an extra CB take his squad spot. And then Fabinho would have remained strictly a midfielder. Maybe the way the squad is set up was a bit of a mistake.

 

Shaqiri, to be fair, doesn't really make the bench much either. But keeping the same number of midfielders, plus adding Thiago, plus adding a CB was clearly not in the cards. Too bloated.

[TheHowieLama]

Honestly thought Milner would go to Leeds. 

Be interesting to see how much he plays this year.

[Elite]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

Honestly thought Milner would go to Leeds. 

Be interesting to see how much he plays this year.

I doubt we'll see him start many games, he'll get plenty of minutes from the bench though.

[Megadrive Man]

3 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

Honestly thought Milner would go to Leeds. 

Be interesting to see how much he plays this year.

Yeah it became a bit of a fan theory that he would go back there this summer.

 

I think he will get more game time now as we will need his leadership more, plus Henderson and Fabinho will end up at centre back at some point. 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

6 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

People talking about cover have been talking shite. The cover is the same as it was last season, just replace Lovren and Lallana with Fabinho going into defense, Thiago taking Fabinho's place in midfield and a bigger role for Jones. The only sound argument against the club is if someone was interested in Matip, maybe they should have sold and replaced him. 

Agree the cover is about the same as last season, and it wasn’t good enough last season either. We got away with it because the best CB this league has ever seen stayed fit, performed like a monster and covered up for just about everything there was to cover up for, including the inconsistency of Matip and Gomez, mainly caused by injury, and the madness of Lovren.

We shouldn’t have gone for the 4th choice CB you keep harping on about, we should have gone for a good, young CB ready to challenge Martip and Gomez for a starting place. This is what people said in the summer and in a couple of previous transfer windows. You can’t build a squad to fight all fronts with only three CBs, and definately not when two of them are injured half the time.

 

[3 Stacks]

12 minutes ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

Agree the cover is about the same as last season, and it wasn’t good enough last season either. We got away with it because the best CB this league has ever seen stayed fit, performed like a monster and covered up for just about everything there was to cover up for, including the inconsistency of Matip and Gomez, mainly caused by injury, and the madness of Lovren.

We shouldn’t have gone for the 4th choice CB you keep harping on about, we should have gone for a good, young CB ready to challenge Martip and Gomez for a starting place. This is what people said in the summer and in a couple of previous transfer windows. You can’t build a squad to fight all fronts with only three CBs, and definately not when two of them are injured half the time.

 

I've said it in two posts on this page after the one you quoted. If you want to say that having 3 CB's is an issue, the root cause of that is because we have constructed this squad on the back of having loads of depth in midfield. Like I said, if you keep the same number of midfielders we currently have and add a 4th CB, there would be an important player in this squad that wouldn't even make the bench.
 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

1 minute ago, 3 Stacks said:

I've said it in two posts on this page after the one you quoted. If you want to say that having 3 CB's is an issue, the root cause of that is because we have constructed this squad on the back of having loads of depth in midfield. Like I said, if you keep the same number of midfielders we currently have and add a 4th CB, there would be an important player in this squad that wouldn't even make the bench.

 

If you never get injuries or bans then yes. 

[3 Stacks]

9 minutes ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

If you never get injuries or bans then yes. 

So what you're saying is Klopp and the club just forgot to factor someone might get injured? Bit comical that, I'm sure they're aware that was a possibility.

 

They just decided to build the squad with big numbers in midfield because of the versatility that offers. We have 8 midfielders for 3 spots. That's huge. You have to factor that in when criticizing the decisions made as it pertains to the lack of CB's in the squad. If you don't do that, it's just not fair criticism.

 

By the way, if you were to criticize the way the team is built, that would be fair. Or that Matip should have been sold or replaced because he gets injured too much. I've conceded that. You can even say we should have bought a CB instead of Thiago and that would be coherent, although I'd disagree with you. But just saying, oh we should have bought a CB is a nothing statement. It doesn't take into consideration the numbers we already had in the squad.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

6 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

So what you're saying is Klopp and the club just forgot to factor someone might get injured? Bit comical that, I'm sure they're aware that was a possibility.

 

They just decided to build the squad with big numbers in midfield because of the versatility that offers. We have 8 midfielders for 3 spots. That's huge. You have to factor that in when criticizing the decisions made as it pertains to the lack of CB's in the squad. If you don't do that, it's just not fair criticism.

 

By the way, if you were to criticize the way the team is built, that would be fair. Or that Matip should have been sold or replaced because he gets injured too much. I've conceded that. You can even say we should have bought a CB instead of Thiago and that would be coherent, although I'd disagree with you. But just saying, oh we should have bought a CB is a nothing statement. It doesn't take into consideration the numbers we already had in the squad.

I think it’s very obvious that we need to manage the size of the squad, due to financial and other reasons. And in that context people have pointed out that we lack sufficient quality cover at CB. I’ve said for years that a solid squad, built to compete on several fronts, need 3-4 quality CBs. Depending on a number of factors obviously, including the quality of the youngsters behind those senior squad members, and also other options like Fabinho provides. Three senior CBs, of which two are injury prone, always seemed like a gamble. 

[TheHowieLama]

If I had never heard of Fabinho and we paid 30m for him as a CB and he came on like he did v Chelsea I would have thought we got a steal.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

If I had never heard of Fabinho and we paid 30m for him as a CB and he came on like he did v Chelsea I would have thought we got a steal.

Agree. And hopefully he’s got it in him to do that on a regular basis. If he does, the lack of cover at CB is far less of a problem.  Will be a very nice surprise if he’s able to perform consistently at CB. 

[3 Stacks]

6 minutes ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

I think it’s very obvious that we need to manage the size of the squad, due to financial and other reasons. And in that context people have pointed out that we lack sufficient quality cover at CB. I’ve said for years that a solid squad, built to compete on several fronts, need 3-4 quality CBs. Depending on a number of factors obviously, including the quality of the youngsters behind those senior squad members, and also other options like Fabinho provides. Three senior CBs, of which two are injury prone, always seemed like a gamble. 

Sure. I think it's fair to say to your point that not selling Wijnaldum in the last year of his deal or keeping Milner, especially now that we have cover at left back, instead of buying a 4th CB may have been a mistake. The club went in another direction. It is what it is.

[dockers_strike]

The club is limited by Premier League regs to the size of the squad and number of non home grown players.

 

Personally, I dont agree with the idea you need 4 dedicated centre backs at a club when you have players like Fabinho, Henderson and possibly even Milner who could play one of the positions.

 

You could argue you need 3 quality keepers at a club. In fact one year didnt we go through Reina, Doni and what's his face had to play the FA Cup semi against everton and everyone was crapping themselves?

 

Im pretty sure the club will go to market in the winter window but it's going to cost to get anyone of quality. Get that Koulibaly fella in. He'll do a good job!

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

15 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Sure. I think it's fair to say to your point that not selling Wijnaldum in the last year of his deal or keeping Milner, especially now that we have cover at left back, instead of buying a 4th CB may have been a mistake. The club went in another direction. It is what it is.

It is what it is. And let’s hope Fabinho is an able deputy if or when needed.

[aws]

Didn't Fab start off as a RB? Holding a defensive line etc shouldn't be new to him and we know his other defensive capabilities. He might be a weakness in the air but we'll just have to stop the crosses coming in. 

[Barrington Womble]

2 hours ago, 3 Stacks said:

So what you're saying is Klopp and the club just forgot to factor someone might get injured? Bit comical that, I'm sure they're aware that was a possibility.

 

They just decided to build the squad with big numbers in midfield because of the versatility that offers. We have 8 midfielders for 3 spots. That's huge. You have to factor that in when criticizing the decisions made as it pertains to the lack of CB's in the squad. If you don't do that, it's just not fair criticism.

 

By the way, if you were to criticize the way the team is built, that would be fair. Or that Matip should have been sold or replaced because he gets injured too much. I've conceded that. You can even say we should have bought a CB instead of Thiago and that would be coherent, although I'd disagree with you. But just saying, oh we should have bought a CB is a nothing statement. It doesn't take into consideration the numbers we already had in the squad.

I think the club bet the house on vvd staying fit imo, because pretty much anyone looks like a good centre back next to him. All this "it'll be alright with fabinho" is a flawed plan as soon as there's no vvd. It's a gamble but it was a pretty big gamble. It's not the only gamble we make, we have a world class keeper who is backed up by a bloke who is pretty inadequate, but he was cheap. 

[Supremolad]

Even with 4 senior CB options last season, we skated on thin ice a few times because the injury record of Matip and Lovren wasn't great. Someone here already asked- "how many times did we have all 4 of them fit at the same time"?. I reckon it was for less than 10 matches all season.

 

I recall Henderson had to play CB in the club world cup. And Klopp had to temporarily recall Nat Phillips to play in the FA cup against Everton. So it's clear we had issues last season, even with all 4 CBs and Fabinho registered in the squad. I dont know of any serious club going into a season without having 4 proper options at CB. Matip was always going to be a gamble.

 

So I dont understand how people want to justify letting one of those guys go without replacing (i.e Lovren, who despite not been fit regularly, still played 14 games). This is a shorter season, with fewer rest periods. The pressure on the squad was always going to be immense. If there is any season to have a 'bloated' squad, this is the one. Injuries, covid infections and fatigue are all higher risk factors this season.

[3 Stacks]

15 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I think the club bet the house on vvd staying fit imo, because pretty much anyone looks like a good centre back next to him. All this "it'll be alright with fabinho" is a flawed plan as soon as there's no vvd. It's a gamble but it was a pretty big gamble. It's not the only gamble we make, we have a world class keeper who is backed up by a bloke who is pretty inadequate, but he was cheap. 

So you would have preferred not getting Thiago in favour of buying another CB, I presume? Bear in mind Thiago was an economical transfer and getting any CB that is remotely close to van Dijk's level would have cost something we  probably couldn't afford.

 

And also, what club has two world class centre backs and can adequately mitigate for the long term absence of one of them? Maybe Madrid with Ramos and Varane? Who else? Is that really a fair criticism? 

 

I don't think it's a gamble, Klopp has just built the team in a different way. The Adrian thing is a gamble, I'll give you that.

[Barrington Womble]

13 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

So you would have preferred not getting Thiago in favour of buying another CB, I presume? Bear in mind Thiago was an economical transfer and getting any CB that is remotely close to van Dijk's level would have cost something we  probably couldn't afford.

 

And also, what club has two world class centre backs and can adequately mitigate for the long term absence of one of them? Maybe Madrid with Ramos and Varane? Who else? Is that really a fair criticism? 

 

I don't think it's a gamble, Klopp has just built the team in a different way. The Adrian thing is a gamble, I'll give you that.

As I've said before I wouldn't have made it this year's problem. I'd have solved it the year before when we were champions of Europe and didn't spend a fucking penny. 

[3 Stacks]

2 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

As I've said before I wouldn't have made it this year's problem. I'd have solved it the year before when we were champions of Europe and didn't spend a fucking penny. 

With Matip successfully partnering van Dijk, Gomez being a young star at the position and Lovren still in the side, you would have bought a CB that summer? Hindsight much.