ISIS - To Attack or Not?

[Pureblood]

4 minutes ago, Mook said:

It's not evidence at all.

 

Is there any actual evidence she was coaxed into the decision she made to move across there & get married by people over the age of 15?

She was not legally capable of making the decision herself.  It's very straightforward, I'm not sure why people are overlooking it. 

[Section_31]

Does anyone know what happened to ISIS then? One minute they were the worst thing since unsliced bread then they were gone. Did the ruskies get Spetznaz on their ass and it was derezzed by the BBC?

[Mook]

Just now, TK421 said:

She was not legally capable of making the decision herself.  It's very straightforward, I'm not sure why people are overlooking it. 

Aye but a 15 year old can make a lot of decisions on their own whether they're 'legally capable' or not.

 

What decision are you referring to exactly because it seems to me like there's a fair bit of confusion as to what you're talking about & what other people on the thread are talking about?

[SasaS]

Just now, Section_31 said:

Does anyone know what happened to ISIS then? One minute they were the worst thing since unsliced bread then they were gone. Did the ruskies get Spetznaz on their ass and it was derezzed by the BBC?

 

?

[Pureblood]

1 minute ago, Mook said:

Aye but a 15 year old can make a lot of decisions on their own whether they're 'legally capable' or not.

 

What decision are you referring to exactly because it seems to me like there's a fair bit of confusion as to what you're talking about & what other people on the thread are talking about?

There's evidence here that the police had prior knowledge.  I'm talking about her decision to go to Syria, which I believe she was groomed into making.  

 

The police had become concerned that some girls in East London were being groomed by Isis, using other young women to lure them to Syria with all sorts of promises via social media. It’s easy to see how any 15 year old who grows up within a conservative, restrictive community would find messages like these appealing and exotic.

 

The police gave Shamima and her friends letters to give to their parents warning about the dangers of radicalisation, which were later found in their schoolbags. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/shamima-begum-isis-bride-home-uk-bethnal-green-isis-home-secretary-javid-a8781141.html

 

[SasaS]

4 minutes ago, TK421 said:

There's evidence here that the police had prior knowledge.  I'm talking about her decision to go to Syria, which I believe she was groomed into making.  

 

The police had become concerned that some girls in East London were being groomed by Isis, using other young women to lure them to Syria with all sorts of promises via social media. It’s easy to see how any 15 year old who grows up within a conservative, restrictive community would find messages like these appealing and exotic.

 

The police gave Shamima and her friends letters to give to their parents warning about the dangers of radicalisation, which were later found in their schoolbags. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/shamima-begum-isis-bride-home-uk-bethnal-green-isis-home-secretary-javid-a8781141.html

 

 

They were contacted and persuaded to go, just like almost any other Westerner who ended up in Syria. But this is only one part of the entire process.

[Numero Veinticinco]

On 3/3/2019 at 6:29 PM, Strontium Dog said:

As I always say, you can't have religious extremism without religion.

No. Then it's just extremism. Which is... erm... just as bad. It's not the religion that's bad, it's the extremism. 

[Pureblood]

1 minute ago, SasaS said:

 

They were contacted and persuaded to go, just like almost any other Westerner who ended up in Syria. But this is only one part of the entire process.

Yes, but her age made her particularly vulnerable.  That makes her distinct from the likes of Jihadi John. 

[moof]

Oh, she wasn’t groomed, she was “persuaded”

 

a process made easier because her family were already fans of isis, probably 

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, moof said:

Oh, she wasn’t groomed, she was “persuaded”

 

a process made easier because her family were already fans of isis, probably 

Well, they are Muslim so therefore most of them love ISIS. I saw a poll about it*

 

*we asked 0.00000000001% of radical Muslims and we asked them in front of ISIS. 

[moof]

Just now, Hank Moody said:

Well, they are Muslim so therefore most of them love ISIS. I saw a poll about it*

 

*we asked 0.00000000001% of radical Muslims and we asked them in front of ISIS. 

You can’t argue with science

[Pureblood]

Anyway, does anyone here have a teenage daughter?  Has to be 15 or lower.  I'd like to contact her so that we can make babies.  It'll be entirely her decision so I'll assume there's no problem with that.  Just PM me her Skype address and I'll get cracking.  

[Strontium]

4 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

No. Then it's just extremism. Which is... erm... just as bad. It's not the religion that's bad, it's the extremism. 

 

I think the nature of the extremism is clearly important. Extremists of other ideologies aren't posing much of a threat to anyone. Nobody is worried about being murdered by extreme feminists or extreme liberals. Extremism clearly requires the special ingredients of religion, or the ersatz religion of certain political ideologies, in order to be a danger to life and limb.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

I think the nature of the extremism is clearly important. Extremists of other ideologies aren't posing much of a threat to anyone. Nobody is worried about being murdered by extreme feminists or extreme liberals. Extremism clearly requires the special ingredients of religion, or the ersatz religion of certain political ideologies, in order to be a danger to life and limb.

I think that's quite easily demonstrably wrong. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Anyway, does anyone here have a teenage daughter?  Has to be 15 or lower.  I'd like to contact her so that we can make babies.  It'll be entirely her decision so I'll assume there's no problem with that.  Just PM me her Skype address and I'll get cracking.  

PM'd.

[Strontium]

Just now, Hank Moody said:

I think that's quite easily demonstrably wrong. 

 

Then demonstrate it. Show me how gay extremists or trans extremists or extreme sports enthusiasts pose as much of a threat to other people as religious extremists do. I'm not religious, I'm always open to evidence.

[SasaS]

 

31 minutes ago, moof said:

Oh, she wasn’t groomed, she was “persuaded”

 

a process made easier because her family were already fans of isis, probably 

*sighs*

 

I don't understand why is the word "groomed" suddenly so important, Abott uses it 8 times in that short article in the Independent shared some posts ago, without providing much evidence of it herself BTW.

You cannot be "groomed" without initial contact and interest, sitting in your bedroom. Begum was a member of a group of girls which evidently began talking about what was going in Syria, the father of one of them went to that Choudrey's demonstration so some "milieu" existed around them, one of the mothers spoke about radicalization when she bought a tablet for one of the girls, so they must have watched a lot of videos and were contacted by people working for ISIS who were persuading them to come and giving advice how to do it. It's a process described dozens of times in dozens of documentaries and articles. I was researching something once on a Islamist website and I was almost instantly contacted and asked if I was interested in converting to Islam. If I replied there would probably have been a conversation, if that site has been a front for a jihadi organization and I a Muslim teenager, the process would start, but there would have to be choices made on my part.

She didn't go there to have sex (although that played a part) she went there to join a political movement, a decision she was not qualified to make on her own at 15, but also a decision which does not exonerate her from any responsibility, particularly in the context of the fact she seemingly still shares the movement's ideology, now at the age of 19.  

[Pureblood]

3 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

*sighs*

 

I don't understand why is the word "groomed" suddenly so important, Abott uses it 8 times in that short article in the Independent shared some posts ago, without providing much evidence of it herself BTW.

The Diane Abbott article was from The Mirror, not the Independent.  

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Then demonstrate it. Show me how gay extremists or trans extremists or extreme sports enthusiasts pose as much of a threat to other people as religious extremists do. I'm not religious, I'm always open to evidence.

Why those groups? I didn't mention them. Show you how extreme spots enthusiasts post as much threat as religious extremists!? You are so ridiculous sometimes. Yeah, I'll get right on that Stronts, I'll back up that thing you just made up that I don't believe. Not a waste of time at all.

 

Your dismissive point about 'ersatz religion' pretty much destroys your own point. If you want to treat violent extremists who have nothing to do with religion as religious, why would I waste my time on this? You'll shoehorn everything into the same category. The overarching point is that extremism is extremism, there's nothing particularly special about the religious aspect of it. Your initial point about always saying that there can be no religious extremism without religion puts the blame on religion, which is just your own evident bias ruling your view. 

 

It isn't religion that causes religious extremism, it's an abuse of religion. It isn't politics that cause extremism, it's the abuse of it. Shifting your goalposts from religion to a catch-all for other types of non-religious extremism is... weird. 

[SasaS]

5 minutes ago, TK421 said:

The Diane Abbott article was from The Mirror, not the Independent.  

 

Mea culpa.

[Jenson]

12 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

*sighs*

 

I don't understand why is the word "groomed" suddenly so important, Abott uses it 8 times in that short article in the Independent shared some posts ago, without providing much evidence of it herself BTW.

You cannot be "groomed" without initial contact and interest, sitting in your bedroom. Begum was a member of a group of girls which evidently began talking about what was going in Syria, the father of one of them went to that Choudrey's demonstration so some "milieu" existed around them, one of the mothers spoke about radicalization when she bought a tablet for one of the girls, so they must have watched a lot of videos and were contacted by people working for ISIS who were persuading them to come and giving advice how to do it. It's a process described dozens of times in dozens of documentaries and articles. I was researching something once on a Islamist website and I was almost instantly contacted and asked if I was interested in converting to Islam. If I replied there would probably have been a conversation, if that site has been a front for a jihadi organization and I a Muslim teenager, the process would start, but there would have to be choices made on my part.

She didn't go there to have sex (although that played a part) she went there to join a political movement, a decision she was not qualified to make on her own at 15, but also a decision which does not exonerate her from any responsibility, particularly in the context of the fact she seemingly still shares the movement's ideology, now at the age of 19.  

 

"Persuasion" of a child (15 or under) is the very definition of grooming. As for the sentence I've put in bold, I have no idea where to start with how wrong that is.

[SasaS]

1 minute ago, Jenson said:

 

"Persuasion" of a child (15 or under) is the very definition of grooming. As for the sentence I've put in bold, I have no idea where to start with how wrong that is.

 

Again, yes, I said she was persuaded to go, which is the same as grooming for me, is the word grooming some kind of fetish?

 

On the wrong sentence, you actually believe that 15-year olds' brains are blank slates? In that case a success ratio of ISIS grooming is horrible, no wonder they are finished. There needs to be initial interest, mindset, context, then the process of accepting or rejecting. Actually, why do I even have to explain this?

[Strontium]

11 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

Why those groups? I didn't mention them. Show you how extreme spots enthusiasts post as much threat as religious extremists!? You are so ridiculous sometimes. Yeah, I'll get right on that Stronts, I'll back up that thing you just made up that I don't believe. Not a waste of time at all.

 

Your dismissive point about 'ersatz religion' pretty much destroys your own point. If you want to treat violent extremists who have nothing to do with religion as religious, why would I waste my time on this? You'll shoehorn everything into the same category. The overarching point is that extremism is extremism, there's nothing particularly special about the religious aspect of it. Your initial point about always saying that there can be no religious extremism without religion puts the blame on religion, which is just your own evident bias ruling your view. 

 

It isn't religion that causes religious extremism, it's an abuse of religion. It isn't politics that cause extremism, it's the abuse of it. Shifting your goalposts from religion to a catch-all for other types of non-religious extremism is... weird. 

 

The extreme sports thing was a joke. Come on.

 

The notion of secular ideologies like communism and fascism as ersatz religions is one that has been around for a while. I don't think it especially controversial to describe those ideologies as being very like religions in their nature.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_religion

 

But, look, the only thing that can actually destroy my point is some examples of extremists that pose as much of a threat to us as religious extremists do.

[moof]

13 minutes ago, Jenson said:

 

"Persuasion" of a child (15 or under) is the very definition of grooming. As for the sentence I've put in bold, I have no idea where to start with how wrong that is.

Yeah, bizarre conception. Like something a paedophile would say

[moof]

9 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

Again, yes, I said she was persuaded to go, which is the same as grooming for me, is the word grooming some kind of fetish?

 

On the wrong sentence, you actually believe that 15-year olds' brains are blank slates? In that case a success ratio of ISIS grooming is horrible, no wonder they are finished. There needs to be initial interest, mindset, context, then the process of accepting or rejecting. Actually, why do I even have to explain this?

We say “groomed” because she was a child