ISIS - To Attack or Not?

[TheHowieLama]

I think what he's saying is the brown people in palmyra would rather die by being bombed to pieces by NATO than shot or beheaded by ISIS.

 

Weird cuz I thought he was saying the exact opposite.

 

TBh they would probably just like a sandwich and a warm cup of soup as a start.

[cochyn]

Who's country do you even begin to intervene in, though? The whole Middle East is -at best- a cat's cradle of disparate factions divided across regional, racial and sectarian lines. National borders are mostly arbitrary as they're currently drawn and don't reflect the demography. Even attempts at uniting the Arab states (Arab League, anyone)? are ineffective against IS let alone in stabilising the region.

 

A coordinated air sea and land operation by allied/ UN forces has got 'drawn-out clusterfuck' written all over it. It needs a fucking big war, and a fucking big peace to follow it. Then redraw the maps. Worked for Europe in 1945.

[Jairzinho]

Who's country do you even begin to intervene in, though? The whole Middle East is -at best- a cat's cradle of disparate factions divided across regional, racial and sectarian lines. National borders are mostly arbitrary as they're currently drawn and don't reflect the demography. Even attempts at uniting the Arab states (Arab League, anyone)? are ineffective against IS let alone in stabilising the region.

 

A coordinated air sea and land operation by allied/ UN forces has got 'drawn-out clusterfuck' written all over it. It needs a fucking big war, and a fucking big peace to follow it. Then redraw the maps. Worked for Europe in 1945.

 

Saudi Arabia.

[Section_31]

Iraq I reckon, send a few jarheads in and crack some heads. Not the British though, can't mentally cope with their wives knocking out another shit cover of driving home for Christmas.

 

[Bjornebye]

We should offer them out, or have like a straightener between the cock of us and the cock of them. That would get it sorted.

The wealdstone raider would batter that big fat sword cunt.

[razor]

I don't know enough about the detail of the region to be able to give a valid answer. However, in principle, I would support a multinational ground and air offensive to defeat their forces and neutralise (in whatever way was most effective while remaining legal) their leaders.

 

That's where most of your problems start, I reckon, Paul.

 

"Targeted" objectives = indiscriminate bombing, murdering of innocent people = ISIS recruitment.

 

Personally, I think Palestine is the starting point for any way forward.

[Paul]

That's where most of your problems start, I reckon, Paul.

 

"Targeted" objectives = indiscriminate bombing, murdering of innocent people = ISIS recruitment.

 

Personally, I think Palestine is the starting point for any way forward.

I'm sure you're right mate. However, a problem which has been beyond the reach of the best political and diplomatic minds of the last half century isn't going to be solved by me on a forum; nor will its resolution be painless because war isn't.

 

That's not a throwaway acceptance of (awful phrase) collateral damage, by the way. Just a reference to my view that there is no solution without military intervention when dealing with fanaticism of this complexity and that war always has dire consequences no matter how justified it may be.

[Pureblood]

Who's country do you even begin to intervene in, though?

 

I'd start with the USA.  I'm cheering on Putin.  

[Rico1304]

I wonder if the experiences of those who've lived under ISIS control could be used in the campaign to prevent radicalisation. Hearing the day to day reality might put people off.

[Mook]

My simplistic viewpoint is to get the fuck out of the Middle East and send a load of aid across to those in need for the forseeable future.

[Pureblood]

I wonder if the experiences of those who've lived under ISIS control could be used in the campaign to prevent radicalisation. Hearing the day to day reality might put people off.

 

"Things were really bad but then the UK came in and saved us all!"

[dennis tooth]

I wonder if the experiences of those who've lived under ISIS control could be used in the campaign to prevent radicalisation. Hearing the day to day reality might put people off.

 

Be nice if you could hear the day to day reality like, encouraging you are willing to give it a try.

 

http://en.mehrnews.com/news/118512/VIDEO-Syrian-army-captures-stash-of-US-EU-weapons

 

TEHRAN (FNA)- Senior Advisor to the Iranian Parliament Speaker Hossein Amir Abdollahian warned that Washington seeks to foment insecurity in the region and exclude Syrian President Bashar al-Assad from the political establishment.

"The contradictory behaviors shown by the Americans indicate that they pursue one goal in Syria which is fomenting insecurity in the region to the benefit of their policies," Amir Abdollahian, also a former deputy foreign minister, said on Monday.

Referring to the recent talks on Syria between the US and other relevant parties, he said, "Through negotiations, the Americans want to reach what they couldn’t gain from war. The election campaigns are underway in the US and closing the Syria case is important to the Democrats. They want to omit Bashar Assad through cooperation with the Russians."

Amir Abdollahian stressed that the Russians have not changed their strategy in Syria yet, and said, "The US is exerting high pressure on the Russians and conclusion of the Syria case is highly important to them."

In relevant remarks in May, Iranian Defense Minister Brigadier General Hossein Dehqan lashed out at Washington and Tel Aviv for supporting the terrorist groups in Syria and Iraq.

“What is happening in Syria and Iraq today is a deep-rooted US-Zionist conspiracy that has triggered war in the Muslim territories,” Brigadier General Dehqan told reporters.

The Iranian defense Minister reiterated that the Takfiri terrorists have tainted the image of Islam, and said, “Takfiri terrorists are not affiliated to Islam in terms of faith and conduct and their approach is reprehensible.”

Also in late April, General Dehqan warned the world states of the threat imposed by terrorist groups which are supported by the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia.

"We believe that today the entire world is threatened by insecurity, instability and spread of horror resulted from acts of the Takfiri-Zionist terrorist groups which are supported by the US, Israel and certain regional countries, headed by Saudi Arabia," General Dehqan said, addressing the 2016 Moscow Conference on International Security (MCIS).

He also downplayed the effectiveness of the so-called anti-terrorism coalitions by the terrorists' supporters, saying they are not interested in serious and decisive battle against the terrorists and actually reinvigorate and recruit the terrorist groups under the disguise of humanitarian aid, truce, negotiations and deceptive slogans.

Dehqan underlined Iran's assistance to the terrorism-hit countries, and said the country has paid the most costs to this end.

Iran has pioneered in helping the regional states' fight against terrorism, specially Iraq and Syria, and has offered many regional and world states to cooperate in campaign against terrorist groups

[dennis tooth]

Aleppo is the biggest and second most important Syrian city after capital Damascus which was occupied by terrorists and Takfiri armed groups in 2012. Last week, Syrian Army and Russian forces cut the only border route to Turkey and completed their siege around the city in a significant achievement during more than 5 years of war with terrorists and Takfiris. The achievements of Syrian army and its allies, though, are not limited to this and they have been spending recent months gaining momentum on the battleground.

The imminent recapturing of Aleppo, and even the siege over the city, has improved and will increase Syrian government and Army’s position and will drastically change the game in favor of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and his resistance policy. In other words, liberating Aleppo would pave the way for Syria – and Russia and Iran as its allies – to defeat Al-Nusra Front on one hand, and ISIL which is weakened both in Syria and Iraq on the other hand.

There are two evidence marking the significance of the ongoing developments in Syria. Split of Al-Nusra Front from al-Qaeda was a headline-making news for many media outlets, but did not surprise so many people. It is no secret that Al-Nusra has long been supported by states seeking removal of Assad both in region and outside the Middle East as so-called ‘moderate’ fighters who can fight Assad and Syrian Army to follow a regime change policy in the war-torn country. However, when it was clear that Al-Nusra is affiliated with Al-Qaeda, no more – at least direct – support was possible; though they still managed to funnel supports in lower scale.

The idea was in fact raised more than a year ago by Qatar and some Persian Gulf states who suggested the group to split up with Al-Qaeda and they in return would provide the group with funds and supplies, according to a Reuters report in March 2015. The Arab countries had suggested the idea to get rid of notoriety and illegality of working with and supporting an Al-Qaeda-affiliated group. So in this way they could circumvent the international laws and work with the same terrorists who were once in allegiance with Al-Qaeda in order to use the terrorists to topple Bashar Assad and pursue their regime change plan in Syria.

Now, with the tough situation for Al-Nusra in Aleppo, the same scenario seems to be under way. Al-Nusra has split off from Al-Qaeda and voices of support for the group under the pretext of humanitarianism is being heard from west. Syria and Russia have considered three ‘safe corridors’ for nearly 250,000 civilians and one for the fighters who lay down arms to evacuate the city; Assad has also issued an amnesty verdict for 3 months for any fighter who lays down arms and surrenders to Army or releases prisoners captured by terrorists. Yet, the United States who has the group on its list of terrorist organizations, cast doubt on Moscow's intent where Secretary of State John Kerry claimed "it has the risk, if it is a ruse, of completely breaking apart the level of cooperation."

French and British foreign ministers were next to stand against the siege which can weaken terrorists in Aleppo after about five years, talking of possible humanitarian catastrophe despite measures such as safety corridors and distribution of warm food to the displaced taken by Syria and Russian forces. German FM Frank-Walter Steinmeier also joined the western officials to oppose the siege. With Syrian Army and its allies’ upper hand in the country’s war on terror and renaming of Al-Nusra, western states and some regional Arab countries seem to be trying to rescue terrorists in Aleppo and prolong Syrian war.

It is also important to have an eye on the other side of Syria to understand the situation in Syria and find out another evidence the government is gaining the upper hand in the devastative war. Reviewing last few months in behavior of ISIL terrorist group shows that they losing the ground in Syria (and of course in Iraq as well) more and more and to keep their face, they have turned toward spreading fear by carrying out terrorist attacks in different parts of the world. Recent tragic events in Afghanistan, Iraq, Germany and France which were claimed by ISIL reflects the fact that they are trying to bully the world and hide their losses on the battle ground in Syria and Iraq.

By supporting terrorist groups – directly or indirectly – and curbing Syrian government’s achievements, anti-Assad countries are playing with fire as they have put collapse of Assad government on the top of their agenda, while it negatively impacts their own security. Such terrorist attacks by love wolves or ISIL members across the Europe and other parts of world can happen again unless the Syrian government uproots the terrorists in the country and is ‘truly’ and ‘honestly’ helped in that way. Otherwise, the current policy of west in supporting so-called ‘moderate’ terrorists with their double-standards and impeding Assad’s victory by engaging him in a prolonged war, will have no other result but more sporadic terrorist attacks in their lands.

Hamid Reza Gholamzadeh has done his MA in North American Studies and his focus has been on US policies towards the Middle East. He is also Englsih Chief Editor of Mehr News Agency.

[Anny Road]

We as species just like fighting over stuff, it kind of defines us. Until someone bigger comes along.

The playground is no different to the world map.

[VladimirIlyich]

The country in the Middle East which is the proverbial Snake's Head is Saudi Arabia. Of course it will never be bombed despite its support for ISIS and its horrific human rights record. It does a lot of business with the West which seems to absolve it from any wrongdoing yet its a big factor in the woes of the Middle East.

Whoever said Palestine was the key to beginning a more peaceful settlement in the Middle East also makes a very strong point. Some sort of Israel/Palestinian treaty would send out the right messages to others that things can be achieved.

More bombing in the Middle East would inevitably lead to even more bombings and attacks on European streets.

[Stu Monty]

Energy independence and moving away from oil is pretty much the only way I see some of the Western nations being given the freedom, and the inclination, to sort it out. 

 

The Saudis helped bring the World Trade Centre down and avoided too much shit for it. They let the US get into Iraq then hiked up the price of oil, despite a promise that they wouldn't. Let's not pretend that they can't carry on fanning the flames of Wahabism and Jihadism as much as they want.

 

We could also have left Syria as a functioning state (and swallowed the uncomfortable idea of it being allied with Russia) instead of turning it into a fiery, rubble strewn breeding ground for terror. But anyone who thinks that the likes of the US would go back to that situation to stop a couple of dozen people being killed each year by lunatics is living in a fantasy world. Syria has been a roaring success in their eyes.

[Section_31]

Talking of Saudi 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/india-to-evacuate-starving-workers-from-saudi-arabia/

 

 

 

On Saturday, Swaraj said the government was providing food aid to thousands of Indian workers in Saudi Arabia who are not able to buy food after losing their jobs in the kingdom. In a series of tweets over the weekend, she said that the Indian Embassy in Riyadh would ensure that no laid-off worker went without food.

[Rico1304]

I see that ISIS have very kindly produced a leaflet explaining exactly why they hate the west and will continue to attack. Makes interesting reading.

[Duff Man]

Are they going to be posting it in West Yorkshire?

[Mr Nando]

The history of Western Intervention in Islamic countries is just a series of failures.

 

Who would of thought removing secular dictators from unstable Islamic countries would create a power vacuum that Islamic fundamentalists would exploit?

 

If you want to destroy ISIS, just set up some tin pot secular dictators and let them have at it. Oh wait, shit, we got rid of Saddam (Iraq is a shit heap) Gaddafi (Libya is a shit heap, and I think I read somewhere has more ISIS fighters than either Iraq/Syria??) and we are trying to get rid of Assad (ISIS big in Syria). Do people see a connection? 

 

How about we stop supporting the moderates in Syria with weapons (that somehow seem to end up in the hands of ISIS) and air strikes and just let Assad sort his shit out? I mean will Assad kill a million civilians, like the Wests last ground incursion to the middle east? I think not.

 

Set up some dictators instead of sending in Western troops.

 

What it comes down to is the West can't or wont do what is necessary to defeat insurgents/guerrillas/rebels. The last time the west successfully persecuted a counter insurgency/anti guerrilla operation was the Malayan emergency between 1948-60. Unless you count the peace treaty in Northern Ireland. Although I somehow doubt people would call it a success if ISIS stopped attacking the west, set up a political party and then had MP's sitting in the House of Commons.

 

And the only way we won that war, was through harsh tactics that the West frankly doesn't have the stomach for (yet) and would have war crimes levied against us (like the Mau Mau revolt) but for the fact that it wasn't technically a war.

1) Collective punishment of families of insurgents/rebels and villages suspected of supplying them or merely not providing intelligence on the insurgents. An ancient/medieval tactic beloved of the Nazis.

2) Concentration camps, invented by the British (in another one of the few examples of a successful western counter insurgency operation, the Boer War), made famous by the Nazis and the rebranded by us during the Malay emergency as New Villages (or something similar).

3) Use of chemical weapons. The Malay emergency saw the first use of chemical defoliates. 

4) Indiscriminate mass bombing.

5) Murder & torture. Not the pussy bullshit like water boarding though.

 

Aside from the Boer war (1,2,5)at the turn of the century, the Philippine American War (1,2,5) at around the same time and the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya (1,2,5), I honestly can't think of any other Western successes when it comes to counter insurgency work. 

 

When you have people being radicalised in months, without ever having visited a Mosque (Nice attacker), any Muslim, disaffected or mentally ill person is a potential terrorist.

When you only have 1 full time police offer per 500 citizens there is no way that you can successfully monitor and contain every threat. Listening to the ex-head of some British security service, he detailed the amount of personnel needed to monitor every one on the terror UK watch list (24hr surveillance) would require the total police forces of France & Germany....

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I see that ISIS have very kindly produced a leaflet explaining exactly why they hate the west and will continue to attack. Makes interesting reading.

I just had one knock the door. 'Hello, are you worried about the state of the world today'. I called the police.

[Anubis]

I see that ISIS have very kindly produced a leaflet explaining exactly why they hate the west and will continue to attack. Makes interesting reading.

Is it in multiple languages, including Welsh?

[Rico1304]

Is it in multiple languages, including Welsh?

And Braille.

[Rico1304]

It could almost mention a few on here by name.

[setreal]

Is it in multiple languages, including Welsh?

 

Isn't Welsh basically Arabic with a few rh, ff and w on top?