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Georginio Wijnaldum

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We will miss him but got to back the clubs structure here. He wanted a lot of money there's only so much to go round in wages so you bring someone in younger that will play for what he earned. Even if that is 150k before tax(doubt it) there's also the signing on fee and agents fee. Whatever story we here from him will only be one side of it anyway

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On 08/06/2021 at 16:07, CapeRed said:

100% bang on. The only thing he really lacked was goals. Would love Tielemans to replace him

He only lacked goals because he played a different role for us. Over a ten-year international career he’s scored one in three; for PSV it was nearly a goal every other game. 

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42 minutes ago, Ron B said:

He only lacked goals because he played a different role for us. Over a ten-year international career he’s scored one in three; for PSV it was nearly a goal every other game. 

That may be the case but he still lacked goals for us.

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57 minutes ago, Ron B said:

He only lacked goals because he played a different role for us. Over a ten-year international career he’s scored one in three; for PSV it was nearly a goal every other game. 

So, the different role he played must have included instructions to blast the ball over the bar time and time again, or back pass it to their keeper.

 

Because I can create a DVD worth of those from his time here.

 

Let's stop making out like we've just lost the best player in the world.

 

He's probably the most replaceable midfielder we have.

 

The fact that in every discussion about him, people keep bringing up his availability actually highlights his limitations.

 

No one ever spoke about how available Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso were.

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33 minutes ago, m0e said:

So, the different role he played must have included instructions to blast the ball over the bar time and time again, or back pass it to their keeper.

 

Because I can create a DVD worth of those from his time here.

 

Let's stop making out like we've just lost the best player in the world.

 

He's probably the most replaceable midfielder we have.

 

The fact that in every discussion about him, people keep bringing up his availability actually highlights his limitations.

 

No one ever spoke about how available Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso were.

Do you not think his availability is very relevant considering the record of the rest of our midfield? You'd have a point if we had loads of players available all the time, but we don't. 

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48 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Do you not think his availability is very relevant considering the record of the rest of our midfield? You'd have a point if we had loads of players available all the time, but we don't. 

Very relevant for what we've achieved over the past 5 years.

 

How relevant it will be over the next 5 years depends on our sucession planning.

 

Oxlade, then Keita, and then Jones were clearly earmarked to replace, Milner, Lallana and Henderson

 

2 of those 3 won't make it, and Jones still has to prove he can.

 

That's the problem right there. We haven't got it right. We need to get it right. Pronto.

 

The fact that Gini's contract ran out has now has highlighted this even more, and it's time do deal with it.

 

Paying him 150k for another 3 years isn't a no brainer when that salary can be put towards our next generation of midfielders.

 

Thiago has come in to replace Gini. That's obvious. That's where Gini's payrise went. That's why we kept Fabinho as 4th choice CB last season.

 

And Thiago is clearly an upgrade, fitness permitting. I know you don't agree, but that's how I believe Klopp sees it, and I agree with that.

 

What we need to do now is shift Oxlade and Keita and bring in young, hungry, and resilient midfielders that can learn from, and then take the place of Hendo, Fabino, Thiago, and Milner over the next 5 seasons.

 

Wijnaldum doesn't fit that plan, and it makes total sense to me.

 

If we will miss him next season, that's because we've fucked up the other stuff, not his contract renewal.

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41 minutes ago, m0e said:

Very relevant for what we've achieved over the past 5 years.

 

How relevant it will be over the next 5 years depends on our sucession planning.

 

Oxlade, then Keita, and then Jones were clearly earmarked to replace, Milner, Lallana and Henderson

 

2 of those 3 won't make it, and Jones still has to prove he can.

 

That's the problem right there. We haven't got it right. We need to get it right. Pronto.

 

The fact that Gini's contract ran out has now has highlighted this even more, and it's time do deal with it.

 

Paying him 150k for another 3 years isn't a no brainer when that salary can be put towards our next generation of midfielders.

 

Thiago has come in to replace Gini. That's obvious. That's where Gini's payrise went. That's why we kept Fabinho as 4th choice CB last season.

 

And Thiago is clearly an upgrade, fitness permitting. I know you don't agree, but that's how I believe Klopp sees it, and I agree with that.

 

What we need to do now is shift Oxlade and Keita and bring in young, hungry, and resilient midfielders that can learn from, and then take the place of Hendo, Fabino, Thiago, and Milner over the next 5 seasons.

 

Wijnaldum doesn't fit that plan, and it makes total sense to me.

 

If we will miss him next season, that's because we've fucked up the other stuff, not his contract renewal.

If we have a plan, I think you have a point on most of what you say. I'm not convinced there is a plan because I think the decisions will be driven by who we can sell and will purely be reactionary and if we sell nobody the plan is nothing. And honestly, who'd offer money for keita or chamberlain now? 

 

How I see our midfield is we have 1 nailed on player in our midfield for next season:

Fabinho picks himself if he's fit. We absolutely must not be using him at centre back. 

Hendo - who the fuck knows? Obviously he's good enough if he's fit, but that seems to be less and less. 

Milner - the issue here is obvious and he's never really nailed a midfield place down under klopp, I would actually say this has been his best season in our midfield and you could argue that's because the rest of them were so bad, injured or playing elsewhere. 

Thiago - did ok once fabinho was there to hold his hand, but when we needed him to be the world class talent he's supposed to be, he went missing. And all of his bad performances seemed to be blamed on other people not being there, or whichever position we asked him to play that week. 

Jones - he's progressing nicely. I'm yet to be convinced he's ready for 50-odd matches in a team that challenges for the league and CL. But I would say he's maybe the most likely to play 50 games after fabinho.

Chamberlain & keita - they're both just irrelevant to me. And I don't know if I should throw Shaq in there too and not because I think he offers something different to them, just because I'm not sure klopp sees him as a midfielder. 

 

So while you have a point it's about who we bring in, if we fail to replace the games Gini has brought over this last 5 years it's a failure of both succession planning and contingency planning - if we haven't got an option for Gini, we should have found a way to keep him. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, m0e said:

Very relevant for what we've achieved over the past 5 years.

 

How relevant it will be over the next 5 years depends on our sucession planning.

 

Oxlade, then Keita, and then Jones were clearly earmarked to replace, Milner, Lallana and Henderson

 

2 of those 3 won't make it, and Jones still has to prove he can.

 

That's the problem right there. We haven't got it right. We need to get it right. Pronto.

 

The fact that Gini's contract ran out has now has highlighted this even more, and it's time do deal with it.

 

Paying him 150k for another 3 years isn't a no brainer when that salary can be put towards our next generation of midfielders.

 

Thiago has come in to replace Gini. That's obvious. That's where Gini's payrise went. That's why we kept Fabinho as 4th choice CB last season.

 

And Thiago is clearly an upgrade, fitness permitting. I know you don't agree, but that's how I believe Klopp sees it, and I agree with that.

 

What we need to do now is shift Oxlade and Keita and bring in young, hungry, and resilient midfielders that can learn from, and then take the place of Hendo, Fabino, Thiago, and Milner over the next 5 seasons.

 

Wijnaldum doesn't fit that plan, and it makes total sense to me.

 

If we will miss him next season, that's because we've fucked up the other stuff, not his contract renewal.

I don't understand why FSG seem to allow players run their contract down,such as Can and Wijnaldum in recent years. What makes this a better option than a smallish transfer fee? I have no idea of the answer here,I'm just curious.

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5 hours ago, m0e said:

Let's stop making out like we've just lost the best player in the world.

I haven’t said he’s the best midfielder in the world. I just suggested that other sides - at both club and international level - played him in a more attacking role. And when they’ve done so, he’s scored lots of goals. 

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46 minutes ago, Ron B said:

I haven’t said he’s the best midfielder in the world. I just suggested that other sides - at both club and international level - played him in a more attacking role. And when they’ve done so, he’s scored lots of goals. 

You didn't respond to the point that he missed a shed load of chances for us.

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2 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

What makes this a better option than a smallish transfer fee? I have no idea of the answer here,I'm just curious.

For the club it is the amount you save on wages over the last couple of years while having the player.

 

For the player it is a massive signing on fee.

 

 

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2 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I don't understand why FSG seem to allow players run their contract down,such as Can and Wijnaldum in recent years. What makes this a better option than a smallish transfer fee? I have no idea of the answer here,I'm just curious.

Saves us millions in wages during their current contract. Prevents the unflushsable turd situation if they turn to shit. Frees up the salary for younger players. 

 

Can would have signed the contract with a release clause, which is a non negotiable where Klopp is concerned, and rightly so. 

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47 minutes ago, Ron B said:

I haven’t said he’s the best midfielder in the world. I just suggested that other sides - at both club and international level - played him in a more attacking role. And when they’ve done so, he’s scored lots of goals. 

His first season here he was involved in about 20 golas - he had about a dozen assists.

Last season he had zero. Not sure his role changed that drastically - it had to be a bit of a mental block because as Moe says - he got chances. Chances he probably would have converted for country.

1 minute ago, m0e said:

You didn't respond to the point that he missed a shed load of chances for us.

yip.

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4 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

If we have a plan, I think you have a point on most of what you say. I'm not convinced there is a plan because I think the decisions will be driven by who we can sell and will purely be reactionary and if we sell nobody the plan is nothing. And honestly, who'd offer money for keita or chamberlain now? 

 

How I see our midfield is we have 1 nailed on player in our midfield for next season:

Fabinho picks himself if he's fit. We absolutely must not be using him at centre back. 

Hendo - who the fuck knows? Obviously he's good enough if he's fit, but that seems to be less and less. 

Milner - the issue here is obvious and he's never really nailed a midfield place down under klopp, I would actually say this has been his best season in our midfield and you could argue that's because the rest of them were so bad, injured or playing elsewhere. 

Thiago - did ok once fabinho was there to hold his hand, but when we needed him to be the world class talent he's supposed to be, he went missing. And all of his bad performances seemed to be blamed on other people not being there, or whichever position we asked him to play that week. 

Jones - he's progressing nicely. I'm yet to be convinced he's ready for 50-odd matches in a team that challenges for the league and CL. But I would say he's maybe the most likely to play 50 games after fabinho.

Chamberlain & keita - they're both just irrelevant to me. And I don't know if I should throw Shaq in there too and not because I think he offers something different to them, just because I'm not sure klopp sees him as a midfielder. 

 

So while you have a point it's about who we bring in, if we fail to replace the games Gini has brought over this last 5 years it's a failure of both succession planning and contingency planning - if we haven't got an option for Gini, we should have found a way to keep him. 

Agree with your analysis of our midfielders, and Milner in particular. Thiago, when you say he goes missing, I think he started his comeback like he was lost, and then found his way, which is a much more positive perspective.

 

Don't agree with the succession planning. That's been clear for me. Lovren, Lallana, and Milner were given contracts so we could wait for Gomez, Keita and Jones.

 

We kept Gini last season waiting for Konate.

 

Orgi, Shaq, Minamino are cheaper ways of waiting for someone like Elliott, for example, to make it, as opposed to buying players that we're not sure are good enough.

 

So, if they sold Origi last seaosn, they'd have had to buy someone, or play a season a player light up top.

 

The only thing that makes sense in keeping him, is to plan for a potential incoming later down the line.

 

It'll be the same for the likes of Oxlade and Neco Williams. We'll sell them to make way for who we want, or we'll wait until their contract runs out to free up the space.

 

It all depends on the long term planning. Most of our big signings so far under Klopp had been planned in years ago, I reckon.

 

The idea that we have to sell to buy will not change so long as FSG are here.

 

And Klopp has to show them that investing in a 50mil player who is well ahead of his peak, is relatively risk free when it comes to selling them on.

 

Otherwise, it's going to be really tough convincing them to buy players before we sell.

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2 hours ago, m0e said:

Agree with your analysis of our midfielders, and Milner in particular. Thiago, when you say he goes missing, I think he started his comeback like he was lost, and then found his way, which is a much more positive perspective.

 

Don't agree with the succession planning. That's been clear for me. Lovren, Lallana, and Milner were given contracts so we could wait for Gomez, Keita and Jones.

 

We kept Gini last season waiting for Konate.

 

Orgi, Shaq, Minamino are cheaper ways of waiting for someone like Elliott, for example, to make it, as opposed to buying players that we're not sure are good enough.

 

So, if they sold Origi last seaosn, they'd have had to buy someone, or play a season a player light up top.

 

The only thing that makes sense in keeping him, is to plan for a potential incoming later down the line.

 

It'll be the same for the likes of Oxlade and Neco Williams. We'll sell them to make way for who we want, or we'll wait until their contract runs out to free up the space.

 

It all depends on the long term planning. Most of our big signings so far under Klopp had been planned in years ago, I reckon.

 

The idea that we have to sell to buy will not change so long as FSG are here.

 

And Klopp has to show them that investing in a 50mil player who is well ahead of his peak, is relatively risk free when it comes to selling them on.

 

Otherwise, it's going to be really tough convincing them to buy players before we sell.

I don't think I agree much there to be honest. Lovren got renewed when Gomez was already a 1st team player when he was fit - you could maybe have chucked klavan in as someone filling gaps. I'm happy to be wrong, but I thought lallana signed a 6 year contract when we signed him and the only extension he ever signed was to see him through the covid end of last season. And milner will be renewed until he doesn't want to be here any more, I don't think Jones has anything to do with it. 

 

I also don't agree if we'd have sold origi we'd have bought anyone else. We signed Jota who effectively replace Brewster (who'd never played), who in turn was sold to fund thiago. And lallana's and clynne's wages were chucked in to balance the books. If origi had gone, we'd have banked that cash. I think Jota was seen as a net new investment and if origi went that was just ok. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

I don't think I agree much there to be honest. Lovren got renewed when Gomez was already a 1st team player when he was fit - you could maybe have chucked klavan in as someone filling gaps. I'm happy to be wrong, but I thought lallana signed a 6 year contract when we signed him and the only extension he ever signed was to see him through the covid end of last season. And milner will be renewed until he doesn't want to be here any more, I don't think Jones has anything to do with it. 

 

I also don't agree if we'd have sold origi we'd have bought anyone else. We signed Jota who effectively replace Brewster (who'd never played), who in turn was sold to fund thiago. And lallana's and clynne's wages were chucked in to balance the books. If origi had gone, we'd have banked that cash. I think Jota was seen as a net new investment and if origi went that was just ok. 

 

 

Ok

 

Lallana signed a new 3 year deal April 2017, 17 months after Klopp joined.

 

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2017/02/confirmed-adam-lallana-signs-new-3-year-contract-liverpool/amp/

 

Oxlade Chamberlain signed that summer.

 

Lovren signed for 5 years in October 2017, exactly 2 years after Klopp started.

 

Gomez made a total of 5 league appearances before that (his Breakthrough) season at the age of 20.

 

Klavan was signed the season before as Gomez was recovering from a long term injury. He was a stop gap for Gomez, which is exactly my point about why we keep players on, in order to avoid that scenario.

 

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/261714-dejan-lovren-signs-new-long-term-liverpool-contract

 

Screenshot_20210613-214322_Chrome.jpg

 

Klopp has known about Jones for years, so why would be buy players who are not first team potential if he believes they'll block his passage? He's indicated this on numerous occasions. That's what I mean by planning longer term.

 

And finally, and I have no evidence for this:

 

I think Origi has only stayed in case we got a big injury to any of the front 3, whereas Jota was to challenge the front 3.

 

I think we haven't sold him because we could not replace him with any better as cover, not because there aren't any suiters and certainly not because he's any good to challenge the front 3.

 

The minute we can buy what we want, we'll sacrifice him, but not for another cover player.

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