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Georginio Wijnaldum

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12 hours ago, aRdja said:

For what it’s worth I think Barcelona would be the right move for him. They’re in transition, will be very good again in a couple of years... they have loads of talented youngsters, their midfield could really do with a player like him. De Jong, Pjanic are quite similar in style and Busquets has been awful for a couple of years now.

I never got the fuss with Busquets. 

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9 minutes ago, m0e said:

Apart from our 2 biggest games in 2018, and our biggest in 2019 you mean?

 

These are the line ups for Man City at Anfield in the 3-0 first leg and Roma in the 5-2. He came back in for the injured Hendo for the second leg at the Etihad in the #6 role (first time he'd played there for us, incidentally) and came in for the injured Oxlade in Roma.

 

It's a pointless debate if people are just going to make shit up to suit their agenda.

 

He was regularly dropped for others in those 2 seasons and always made his way back in due to injuries.

 

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That just doesn't matter though. It was 18 months ago. Some players need to be dropped occasionally. Some need to be pushed by new players coming in and challenging their place. The operate at their best when feeling they're not secure. But Gini's playing record tells you all you need to know. He plays as often if not more often than everyone. 

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56 minutes ago, m0e said:

Apart from our 2 biggest games in 2018, and our biggest in 2019 you mean?

 

These are the line ups for Man City at Anfield in the 3-0 first leg and Roma in the 5-2. He came back in for the injured Hendo for the second leg at the Etihad in the #6 role (first time he'd played there for us, incidentally) and came in for the injured Oxlade in Roma.

 

It's a pointless debate if people are just going to make shit up to suit their agenda.

 

He was regularly dropped for others in those 2 seasons and always made his way back in due to injuries.

 

Screenshot_20201224-112213_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20201224-112251_Chrome.jpg

Gini started both CL finals, no?

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10 hours ago, aRdja said:

They’re in transition. They have loads of hyped young talents; De Jong, Dest, Pedri, Fati, Trincao. They will very good again in the next 2-3 years.

If half those pan out they will be lucky, that is just the way it is with kids.

Their center backs are awful - your boy Dest has been shit as well in the league. Ter Stegen keeps kicking them into his own net. The way they are going this year they may be playing on Thursday nights next season.

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44 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Gini started both CL finals, no?

I think Ox would have started the first one of he wasn't injured.

 

To me it was quite telling that Gini didn't start either of the games against Barcelona in midfield. 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, MegadriveMan said:

I think Ox would have started the first one of he wasn't injured.

 

To me it was quite telling that Gini didn't start either of the games against Barcelona in midfield. 

 

 

This 

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1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

That just doesn't matter though. It was 18 months ago. Some players need to be dropped occasionally. Some need to be pushed by new players coming in and challenging their place. The operate at their best when feeling they're not secure. But Gini's playing record tells you all you need to know. He plays as often if not more often than everyone. 

It does matter when I'm making the point that his form has picked up in the past 12 months.

 

It does matter when it's been injuries that's put him there.

 

And it does matter when a regular starter isn't being given the contract he wants.

 

I'm outlining a different narrative to try and make sense of things, so to say it doesn't matter is...

 

 

tenor (12) (4).gif

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1 hour ago, aRdja said:

Gini started both CL finals, no?

He did. The first probably because of the Ox injury, and the second because he played his way back in from the bench versus Barcelona.

 

There were strong suggestions Milner would get the nod ahead of him versus Spurs and that was the only position up for debate, by the way. Just think about that for context.

 

His form has picked up massively in the past 12 months or more and he has found a consistency that just wasn't there before; and likely for a number reasons.

 

This isn't black and white. In no way am I saying the ONLY reason he as many starts as he has is because of injuries. But it is a reason. When we had 3 others fit, he'd miss out, and miss out on big games.

 

It also has a lot to do with the number of midfielders we have compared to the other positions.

 

For example, Hendo missed out at the Nou Camp despite being fit (although he'd just come back from an injury if memory serves).

 

And for the record, the performances this season, in terms of quality as well and consistency, is better than we've ever seen from him. That surely can't be up for a debate.

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16 minutes ago, m0e said:

It does matter when I'm making the point that his form has picked up in the past 12 months.

 

It does matter when it's been injuries that's put him there.

 

And it does matter when a regular starter isn't being given the contract he wants.

 

I'm outlining a different narrative to try and make sense of things, so to say it doesn't matter is...

 

 

tenor (12) (4).gif

The number of starts he's made in 4 and a bit season suggest that Gini like every player has not been at the highest level for over 4 years, but has been at a pretty high level most of it. He certainly took maybe half a season to settle here, but he was changing from a being a 10 all his career, to adjusting to being midfield in a high pressure team. I think certainly in the 17/18 season with initially coutinho and latterly chamberlain, there was an idea he'd be the man to miss out, but he came through it like absolutely top class players do. It's 2 years ago. For me 140 starts in 160-odd games, with another 15 off the bench tells you all you need to know about his quality. If it makes you feel better by saying "he wasn't all that for a spell 2 years ago and maybe he'll go back to that on a new contract", that's fine. I just think it's a bit abtruse to suggest he's been anything but an essential part of the team. 

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18 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

The number of starts he's made in 4 and a bit season suggest that Gini like every player has not been at the highest level for over 4 years, but has been at a pretty high level most of it. He certainly took maybe half a season to settle here, but he was changing from a being a 10 all his career, to adjusting to being midfield in a high pressure team. I think certainly in the 17/18 season with initially coutinho and latterly chamberlain, there was an idea he'd be the man to miss out, but he came through it like absolutely top class players do. It's 2 years ago. For me 140 starts in 160-odd games, with another 15 off the bench tells you all you need to know about his quality. If it makes you feel better by saying "he wasn't all that for a spell 2 years ago and maybe he'll go back to that on a new contract", that's fine. I just think it's a bit abtruse to suggest he's been anything but an essential part of the team. 

Depends how you define essential.

 

I certainly didn't use that word because for me, it's all relative.

 

His fitness record has certainly made him a vital part of the team, especially this season.

 

And no, I don't mean it like its a bad thing.

 

Edit - and his worst period for us was in that second season when he lost his place to Oxlade Chamberlain. He'd be invisible in almost every away game where we dominated the ball, offering practically fuck all.

 

Your analysis is way off, I'm afraid.

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24 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

The number of starts he's made in 4 and a bit season suggest that Gini like every player has not been at the highest level for over 4 years, but has been at a pretty high level most of it. He certainly took maybe half a season to settle here, but he was changing from a being a 10 all his career, to adjusting to being midfield in a high pressure team. I think certainly in the 17/18 season with initially coutinho and latterly chamberlain, there was an idea he'd be the man to miss out, but he came through it like absolutely top class players do. It's 2 years ago. For me 140 starts in 160-odd games, with another 15 off the bench tells you all you need to know about his quality. If it makes you feel better by saying "he wasn't all that for a spell 2 years ago and maybe he'll go back to that on a new contract", that's fine. I just think it's a bit abtruse to suggest he's been anything but an essential part of the team. 

He wasn't a number 10 all his career. He was a midfielder. Newcastle played him on the wing for some reason but that wasn't his position. 

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I think he has played every outfield position for us - tbh he would be better cover at fullback than Milner at this stage.

Fantastic cog for a great machine, not really a guy you expect to take over a game.

Unless he is playing for Netherlands then he somehow morphs into a scoring machine.

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My memory may well be acting up on me but I don't remember Oxlaide Chamberlain ever been a guaranteed first pick. He is and always has been a useful player with a specific skill set that Jurgen went with for certain games.

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50 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I think he has played every outfield position for us - tbh he would be better cover at fullback than Milner at this stage.

Fantastic cog for a great machine, not really a guy you expect to take over a game.

Unless he is playing for Netherlands then he somehow morphs into a scoring machine.

That's the thing. He's a fantastic squad option who has imposed himself mostly because he's versatile and always available. If you look at it that way, it's maybe understandable that the club are skittish about giving him massive wages and a long contract into his mid 30's. That's why there's a lot to think about. Are his qualities truly irreplaceable or is he just a very safe, consistent presence? It's tough to say. 

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14 minutes ago, No2 said:

My memory may well be acting up on me but I don't remember Oxlaide Chamberlain ever been a guaranteed first pick. He is and always has been a useful player with a specific skill set that Jurgen went with for certain games.

I showed the 2 line ups earlier in this thread. He was automatic choice for at least a dozen or so games before that knee injury.

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13 minutes ago, m0e said:

I showed the 2 line ups earlier in this thread. He was automatic choice for at least a dozen or so games before that knee injury.

I think you are fondly remembering a three match run in the CL - he started two games in a row in the league just once that first season (and that was in Jan), and only 4 in the CL total.

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16 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

That's the thing. He's a fantastic squad option who has imposed himself mostly because he's versatile and always available. If you look at it that way, it's maybe understandable that the club are skittish about giving him massive wages and a long contract into his mid 30's. That's why there's a lot to think about. Are his qualities truly irreplaceable or is he just a very safe, consistent presence? It's tough to say. 

I don't know man - Milner is on more than double the wages and he has played only a handful of minutes this season. He really did not play all that much last season either.

Love James but if it was a straight swap I would have Wiji.

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6 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I don't know man - Milner is on more than double the wages and he has played only a handful of minutes this season. He really did not play all that much last season either.

Love James but if it was a straight swap I would have Wiji.

Yeah, but I think a condition of Milner's deal is that he's not to be a consistent first 11 player. He's an experienced head who can come off the bench and solve problems in multiple positions. I think Gini would expect to be a regular starting 11 player. 

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21 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I think you are fondly remembering a three match run in the CL - he started two games in a row in the league just once that first season (and that was in Jan), and only 4 in the CL total.

He started both QF ties against the best side in England and our biggest rivals.

 

He then started the Semi final before doing is knee.

 

If that's not a first teamer, then I give up on the definition.

 

The games he missed in between were BECAUSE he was a first team pick.

 

Anyway, I've made my point and if people see it otherwise, good for them.

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3 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Yeah, but I think a condition of Milner's deal is that he's not to be a consistent first 11 player. He's an experienced head who can come off the bench and solve problems in multiple positions. I think Gini would expect to be a regular starting 11 player. 

It is all guessing anyway but I imagine when Milner first came he expected the same. And I think Gini would still be in the 11 more often than not for another couple of seasons. His best mate is here and he and Klopp have a great relationship - problem is even if we put him on par with Milner over the course of a 4 year contract he would make a shitload more by moving, like millions more. Can't really blame him.

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2 minutes ago, m0e said:

He started both QF ties against the best side in England and our biggest rivals.

 

He then started the Semi final before doing is knee.

 

If that's not a first teamer, then I give up on the definition.

 

The games he missed in between were BECAUSE he was a first team pick.

 

Anyway, I've made my point and if people see it otherwise, good for them.

Huh? Agreed he had a three match run in the CL - that doesnt change the fact that he really did not play much leading up to that. He wasn't being rested because he was a first team pick..

As an example Henderson started every game but two in the league and the CL during that run from March on - he was a first team pick.

Gini started the first game against Citeh. He had played every league game since March as well.

AoC was preferred to Gini twice during that entire run, the second game at City and the game where he was injured.

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1 hour ago, m0e said:

Depends how you define essential.

 

I certainly didn't use that word because for me, it's all relative.

 

His fitness record has certainly made him a vital part of the team, especially this season.

 

And no, I don't mean it like its a bad thing.

 

Edit - and his worst period for us was in that second season when he lost his place to Oxlade Chamberlain. He'd be invisible in almost every away game where we dominated the ball, offering practically fuck all.

 

Your analysis is way off, I'm afraid.

We'll have to agree to disagree about that then. Personally I think he's been at a very high level for most of his Liverpool career. If you don't see that, fine we're all entitled to our opinions. I just think you're massively underating him, rather like people did with Ronnie Whelan in our last good team. 

1 hour ago, cloggypop said:

He wasn't a number 10 all his career. He was a midfielder. Newcastle played him on the wing for some reason but that wasn't his position. 

I tbough Newcastle played him 10 or as the most attacking of a midfield 5 (sometimes wide) depending how they set up. I don't watch Dutch football (and obviously you do), but I've read about him talking about playing as number 10. 

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