Georginio Wijnaldum

[aws]

I agree with most of m0e's post above and it may well be that we'd already accepted he's going when we signed Thiago.

Maybe the injuries this season have caused a bit of a re-think and we have offered him a contract but not long/ well paid enough to satisfy him. I hope he signs because I'd rather keep him than several of our other midfielders but if he goes we'll deal with it.  

[Arnaud]

I also agree with Moe ´ s analysis, but I still believe we’d better keep him, because he’s been instrumental the past two years in our success, and a top team needs top and reliable players.

[No2]

That analysis is similar to what seems to be the consensus around Alonso.  I don't agree with either. Both were excellent on a consistent level with a few periods were formed dipped and equally some spells were they were on top of their game. Overall they were brilliant football players that were always in the team on merit.

[3 Stacks]

2 hours ago, m0e said:

The article in the Athletic on Gini's contract situation got me thinking.

 

It can't be a coincidence that he's only really shown this type of consistency in the past 12 months. I never rated him as all that in first 2 years, and he was dropped in his 3rd year for Oxlade Chamberlain.

 

He had loads of performances where he'd just disappear, particularly away from home. He was even dropped for the Barcelona second leg because he simply did not perform to a high enough standard often enough that season.

 

He stepped up big time last season and this season especially, and perhaps it's even in small part, due to the contract.

 

An extra 5 or 10 percent is massive, though. 

 

There has to be 2 worries from the management. 1 that the minute he signs, his performances drop off and 2, that he won't be used as much.

 

Fabinho is back in midfield next season, with Thiago (fingers crossed) fully acclimatised and now Jones coming through.

 

You'd have to assume Milner sees his last year out and that Keita and Oxlade will stay put. With Hendo, that's 7 midfielders.

 

Minamino and Trent can cover there too, and we can go 4 up top as we did versus City this season.

 

I understand that he's hardly ever injured, but that's probably the only reason he's been a main stay in the side for so long. Not sure that will be a good enough reason to double his salary and guarantee him 4 more years.

 

If his performances do drop-off, no one will be stepping in to cover his wages, because he's not a match winner.

 

A center half plus keeping the front 3 here is the priority this summer, and if that’s where our focus is, there will be no arguments from me.

 

That's not to say I don't want him to stay, it's just trying to make sense of the club's stance.

It's a tough situation for the club, that's clear. Some people will just scream we need to give him whatever he wants, but it's not that simple. 

 

For what it's worth, the way he's currently playing, it's hard not to want him to stay. That said, if Jones continues on his current trajectory, it's also not crazy to say he could replace what Gini does, and at much lower cost. It would be hard to replace Gini, but maybe the answer is already here. 

[m0e]

30 minutes ago, No2 said:

That analysis is similar to what seems to be the consensus around Alonso.  I don't agree with either. Both were excellent on a consistent level with a few periods were formed dipped and equally some spells were they were on top of their game. Overall they were brilliant football players that were always in the team on merit.

 

There's no doubt for me that injuries have helped to keep him in the side.

 

You can argue he's in there on merit when he's keeping a fully fit Henderson, Fabinho and Thiago on the bench.

 

Because he certainly didn't keep a fully fit Oxlade or Keita out the side.

 

As for your first point, not sure how you can insinuate that he'd previously shown the consistency that he has over the past 12 months. That's just plain wrong.

[Rotpeter]

How about injuries have helped him AND he was there on merit.

[m0e]

1 hour ago, Rotpeter said:

How about injuries have helped him AND he was there on merit.

Sure, its certainly not black and white. It also depends what you mean by "on merit".

 

Why was he dropped for Oxlade in 2018? Why was he dropped for Keita in 2019?

 

That was clearly on merit. I don't remember people up in arms over it at the time.

 

In fact, his contract situation has only really become an issue over the past 12 months or so.

 

People were more worried about Emre Can's 2 years before his ran out. Salah is 2 and half years out and people are starting to panic.

 

There was a debate last summer on whether buying Thiago would mean the end of Gini. I know plenty of Reds who were OK with that, me included. Some were actively calling for it.

 

Also, it's not crazy to assume that we refused to sanction a sale because Klopp knew Fabinho would be in defence, and that this season would be more intense with the covid disruption.

 

Klopp may well have convinced FSG to keep Gini in the squad for this current season on the proviso that we don't keep him on if the numbers don't make sense.

 

Perhaps Gini wanted out last summer, and Klopp convinced him to stay on 1 more year?

 

I'm trying to understand the situation, and the more I think about it, the more angles I find.

[Lee909]

Any idea he was shit in his first season is fucking nonsense. 

 

He scored 6 goals in that season and many of them vital goals getting us points, and him breaking the deadlock just before HT in the last game of the season stopped and anguish second half and secured Champions league football. 

 

 

Premier League Starts sub

2020 13/1

2019 35/2

2018 32/3

2017 27/6

2016 33/3

 

Barring a couple of months in 2017 he has obviously been a regular starter for us in very successful sides. 

 

Obviously the club and his agent can't agree on a deal. Likely with a few new contracts needed for first team players. But any suggestions he should be behind or go before Keita, Ox, Milner are nonsense. He has been more important than all of them. Milner as good as he has been has noticeably slowed, if he didn't offer the ability to play fullback he wouldn't get much playing time. 

[aRdja]

1 hour ago, Lee909 said:

Any idea he was shit in his first season is fucking nonsense. 

 

He scored 6 goals in that season and many of them vital goals getting us points, and him breaking the deadlock just before HT in the last game of the season stopped and anguish second half and secured Champions league football. 

 

 

Premier League Starts sub

2020 13/1

2019 35/2

2018 32/3

2017 27/6

2016 33/3

 

Barring a couple of months in 2017 he has obviously been a regular starter for us in very successful sides. 

 

Obviously the club and his agent can't agree on a deal. Likely with a few new contracts needed for first team players. But any suggestions he should be behind or go before Keita, Ox, Milner are nonsense. He has been more important than all of them. Milner as good as he has been has noticeably slowed, if he didn't offer the ability to play fullback he wouldn't get much playing time. 

Yeah I don’t remember him being “dropped for Ox or Keita”. We just rotated the midfield a bit more but Gini still started more games than most. 

[No2]

3 hours ago, m0e said:

Sure, its certainly not black and white. It also depends what you mean by "on merit".

 

Why was he dropped for Oxlade in 2018? Why was he dropped for Keita in 2019?

 

That was clearly on merit. I don't remember people up in arms over it at the time.

 

In fact, his contract situation has only really become an issue over the past 12 months or so.

 

People were more worried about Emre Can's 2 years before his ran out. Salah is 2 and half years out and people are starting to panic.

 

There was a debate last summer on whether buying Thiago would mean the end of Gini. I know plenty of Reds who were OK with that, me included. Some were actively calling for it.

 

Also, it's not crazy to assume that we refused to sanction a sale because Klopp knew Fabinho would be in defence, and that this season would be more intense with the covid disruption.

 

Klopp may well have convinced FSG to keep Gini in the squad for this current season on the proviso that we don't keep him on if the numbers don't make sense.

 

Perhaps Gini wanted out last summer, and Klopp convinced him to stay on 1 more year?

 

I'm trying to understand the situation, and the more I think about it, the more angles I find.

When I say on merit I mean one of our best 3 midfielders at that point in time. I don't remember him ever being dropped and Lee has just stuck up numbers that confirm that. The Barcelona game is the obvious one he wasn't selected for but with hindsight it looks like Klopp wanted his 3 most aggressive midfielders snapping into tackles. Technically he was dropped for that but its one game in 5 years. He's been in the team for every other big game.

[Barrington Womble]

3 hours ago, m0e said:

Sure, its certainly not black and white. It also depends what you mean by "on merit".

 

Why was he dropped for Oxlade in 2018? Why was he dropped for Keita in 2019?

 

That was clearly on merit. I don't remember people up in arms over it at the time.

 

In fact, his contract situation has only really become an issue over the past 12 months or so.

 

People were more worried about Emre Can's 2 years before his ran out. Salah is 2 and half years out and people are starting to panic.

 

There was a debate last summer on whether buying Thiago would mean the end of Gini. I know plenty of Reds who were OK with that, me included. Some were actively calling for it.

 

Also, it's not crazy to assume that we refused to sanction a sale because Klopp knew Fabinho would be in defence, and that this season would be more intense with the covid disruption.

 

Klopp may well have convinced FSG to keep Gini in the squad for this current season on the proviso that we don't keep him on if the numbers don't make sense.

 

Perhaps Gini wanted out last summer, and Klopp convinced him to stay on 1 more year?

 

I'm trying to understand the situation, and the more I think about it, the more angles I find.

All players have small dips in form and all players get benched. Henderson has been benched and was 4th choice for a while under klopp. Since Gini has been at Liverpool we have consitently had at least 2 (usually more) for each position in midfield. We have played 166 league games. Gini has started 140 of those games and come off the bench in another 15. To suggest during he's been anything but 1st choice I think is looking for ways to make ourselves feel better about him going, which i think he clearly is.

 

You rightly point to the fact he's fit, therefore he plays. You say it like it's a bad thing. But I'd sooner have Gini having a quiet game than chamberlain scratching his plumbs in the treatment room.

 

I can't imagine anyone (maybe firmino?) has played more games under klopp than Gini (or indeed has a more appearance to games ratio for those who've not been here as long as him), so he's undoubtedly going to be an absolutely massive loss if/when he goes and pointing to a match 18 months ago when he didn't get picked doesn't really cut it for me. Fortunately we have probably the best manager in the world at dealing with these situations and back when we were good, we were always smart at the timing of letting the tail of a players career land at another club - we're yet to see if this generation of LFC management has the same skill. It's certainly something klopp isn't used to dealing with as  normally all his good players have fucked off elsewhere before he gets to that point of a top players career. 

 

On a purely footballing level, Gini staying is an easy choice. I get he might be asking too much or indeed we've spent his wages on thiago already - but I don't think anything Gini has (or hasn't) done on the pitch should be the reason he doesn't stay. However I do understand that players who score and assist as little as Gini, however good they are as players, generally earn less and rightly too. 

[TheHowieLama]

Somebody has to carry the piano.

[mgw100]

He's been good since he got here and great since the start of the 18/19 season.

[aRdja]

For what it’s worth I think Barcelona would be the right move for him. They’re in transition, will be very good again in a couple of years... they have loads of talented youngsters, their midfield could really do with a player like him. De Jong, Pjanic are quite similar in style and Busquets has been awful for a couple of years now.

[dockers_strike]

Whether he wants to stay or wants a new challenge, Im just really surprised we're on the verge of losing a 2nd first team regular player for zip.

[3 Stacks]

3 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Whether he wants to stay or wants a new challenge, Im just really surprised we're on the verge of losing a 2nd first team regular player for zip.

You seem to be close to the only one who doesn't get the concept of being fine with letting certain players leave for free. It's not really a big deal. 

[Section_31]

35 minutes ago, aRdja said:

For what it’s worth I think Barcelona would be the right move for him. They’re in transition, will be very good again in a couple of years... they have loads of talented youngsters, their midfield could really do with a player like him. De Jong, Pjanic are quite similar in style and Busquets has been awful for a couple of years now.

I disagree, it'd be pearls before swine, they're arrogant cunts and their fans are thick as fuck, the minute he didn't bang in a hattrick they'd start demanding he be dropped from the team, that Koeman's loyalty runs too deep and that he might be good enough for us but not good enough to thrive in the cauldron of Camp Nou, but then start crying the blues when they get bummed 3-0 by Racing Genk because they've got no holding midfielders and Messi is no longer 26.

[Megadrive Man]

24 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Whether he wants to stay or wants a new challenge, Im just really surprised we're on the verge of losing a 2nd first team regular player for zip.

 

It's part of our strategy now.

 

We either sell players for the fee we want or they have to wait until the end of their contract. 

 

[TheHowieLama]

47 minutes ago, aRdja said:

For what it’s worth I think Barcelona would be the right move for him. They’re in transition, will be very good again in a couple of years... they have loads of talented youngsters, their midfield could really do with a player like him. De Jong, Pjanic are quite similar in style and Busquets has been awful for a couple of years now.

There could not be a worse team in the world for any player to transfer to. Barcelona hasn't been the right move for anyone except maybe Luis Suarez (which ended in tears) and Neymar (who they flogged), and only cuz they scored a hatful of golas, for going on ten years. 

[aRdja]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

There could not be a worse team in the world for any player to transfer to. Barcelona hasn't been the right move for anyone except maybe Luis Suarez (which ended in tears) and Neymar (who they flogged), and only cuz they scored a hatful of golas, for going on ten years. 

They’re in transition. They have loads of hyped young talents; De Jong, Dest, Pedri, Fati, Trincao. They will very good again in the next 2-3 years.

[Lee909]

Barring Fati none are proven at Barcelona. Even de Jong has got load of criticism. They could easily be another bunch of Giovanni dis Santos and Bojan as Iniesta and Xavi

[Daisy]

Every major club in Europe will be after his signature. Bit nuts we aren't in for him 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, aRdja said:

They’re in transition. They have loads of hyped young talents; De Jong, Dest, Pedri, Fati, Trincao. They will very good again in the next 2-3 years.

By which time Gini would surely be surplus to requirements. It's not exactly worked out for coutinho. The best team move for him would surely be Bayern Munich. Anywhere else and he would do better staying put.

 

 

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Lee909 said:

Barring Fati none are proven at Barcelona. Even de Jong has got load of criticism. They could easily be another bunch of Giovanni dis Santos and Bojan as Iniesta and Xavi

Hence why they would probably benefit from a seasoned winner who'll be on the pitch almost every week to help them grow. it's much easier to develop good youngsters around top class professionals than it is surrounded by more promise or mature players who don't want to be there. For Gini a move to Barca I think would offer him the opportunity to be one of the top names to guide the side forward (and perhaps play further forward), whereas at Liverpool it's highly unlikely we'll use him any differently as the platform to allow others to play, just a cog in the machine. 

[m0e]

14 hours ago, aRdja said:

Yeah I don’t remember him being “dropped for Ox or Keita”. We just rotated the midfield a bit more but Gini still started more games than most. 

Apart from our 2 biggest games in 2018, and our biggest in 2019 you mean?

 

These are the line ups for Man City at Anfield in the 3-0 first leg and Roma in the 5-2. He came back in for the injured Hendo for the second leg at the Etihad in the #6 role (first time he'd played there for us, incidentally) and came in for the injured Oxlade in Roma.

 

It's a pointless debate if people are just going to make shit up to suit their agenda.

 

He was regularly dropped for others in those 2 seasons and always made his way back in due to injuries.