Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[moof]

3 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Was this collaborative not in place the last time Labour were in power?

The labour government at the time agreed to follow a right wing economic agenda and allow the likes of murdoch to freely continue his business dealings in exchange for support. This has been widely reported and discussed 

[SasaS]

1 minute ago, Jairzinho said:

What is a capitalist country? Everything bar North Korea? I mean this is a pretty tedious lexical argument, isn't it? You know what people meant. Some of Farage's economic policies probably are to the left of the Tories. 

 

Economic policies that are a long way to the left of what we have now are popular with the general public. Policies that are common place in many Northern European countries now. It's for this very reason that the public has to be lied to constantly. That the policies aren't feasible, that those in charge of parties that want these policies kill swans, etc, etc. 

But you said it yourself that Labour must not have a leader with the 80's socialist baggage, which would suggest you know what I'm talking about.

[The Guest]

Blair and New Labour is right wing.  He kept the same tax rates as Thatcher going even a step further near the end by dropping the lower rate of tax.  They introduced Tuition fees and top up fees, they deregulated the banks, they brought in private finance to the NHS and schooling.  The absolute worst thing about Labour being right wing though isn’t their sell out policies.  It’s the legacy they left of pushing the Lid Dems and Tory party even further right.  Labour won the battle of the personalities when the policies were all the same so the tories just moved further right.  At the end of the day what’s the worse that can happen?  New Labour get in and do loads of right wing shit anyway?

 

The reason tuition fees are now 9k a year, the leasehold scandal is still rumbling on, we are leaving the EU etc is because new labour enabled it.  Had new labour never introduced fees then the tories May have done when they got in power but they’d never be as high as they are.  Had new labour not brought in PFI in schools we wouldn’t have this academy nonsense going on now.  

[Jairzinho]

19 minutes ago, SasaS said:

But you said it yourself that Labour must not have a leader with the 80's socialist baggage, which would suggest you know what I'm talking about.

But that's because the press can say they're part of the KGB, not because they want to re-nationalise electricity.

 

Most of the baggage doesn't have any substance. It doesn't need to. It's just fluff that can be churned out to convince people that hold socialist views that the person at the helm isn't to be trusted, and they'd be far better off voting for someone else.

 

Yes, occasionally people will reminded about the three day week, or how trains were shit before, etc, etc, but most of the time it's just "this person doesn't love the country enough" type stuff. 

 

 

 

 

[cloggypop]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/sep/05/tony-blair-murdoch-family-fold

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, RobbieOR said:

 

I have never said they were right wing but the idea that they're any sort of socialists is bollocks when they've both used any sort of opportunity to tell us how bad the current leadership of the party is. One of them deliberately making a point of promoting the Lib Dems to make a point. 

 

If you have that influence and you care about the wider society you don't completely try and detonate any chance they have of winning by undermining them. If you have any sort of social conscience then you back Corbyn. It's as simple as that.  

I think anytime somebody is forced to end a sentence with 'it's as simple as that' that it's rarely as simple as that. I think Tony Blair should shut his whore mouth, but I'm not going to pretend he wasn't centre left on most issues, and his government was a mixture of centre left and left, with a few bizarre attempts at curbing some liberty in the name of security. I think Stronts probably goes a little far with 'war on civil liberties' but there certainly were issues. I could probably have swallowed some of that if it wasn't for the war. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, moof said:

What did the Blair government give us? 

Please, for the love of all that is Holy, don't put me in a position that I have to sing the virtues of New Labour. I don't think I could take it, moof. Not tonight, moof; not tonight. 

[moof]

7 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Please, for the love of all that is Holy, don't put me in a position that I have to sing the virtues of New Labour. I don't think I could take it, moof. Not tonight, moof; not tonight. 

You’re putting yourself in that position, mate. They did what they did, lots of good and lots of bad, and we are where we are.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, moof said:

You’re putting yourself in that position, mate. They did what they did, lots of good and lots of bad, and we are where we are.

They did a fucking load of good after the best part of two decades of Tory horror. From minimum wage, sustained low inflation and mortgage rates, record levels of unemployment including highest ever employment rate, youth unemployment cut by 75 fuckin' per cent and the New Deal putting 2 million people back into work, 600k kids and millions of elderly lifted out of poverty, and a booming economy; to health where they dramatically improved hospitals and care (85k more nurses, 30k more doctors, heart disease death down 150k, cancer death down by 50k, waiting lists slashed by 500k, etc); on to social policies that changes the lives of millions (2200 Sure Start centres, child benefit up 25%, 200-300 quid for pensioners in the winter, child tax credits which saved God knows how many families, eye tests, free buses for over 60s, etc) and fixed our education system seeing that 300k new teachers and assistants, and doubled - fucking doubled - the funding for every pupil in Britain, gave students whatever that weekly pay was, record numbers of literacy and numeracy and some of the best ever test results seen for teens. You're right, they did lots of good and acted how a Labour government should act on a lot of issues. 

 

They also acted in a way any government should not act with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But I don't think your 'we are where we are because of them' is remotely accurate. We are where we are because of the Tories. Had we reacted to the financial crisis the way that Labour wanted to instead of the way the Tories wanted, we would have recovered more quickly - and were doing - and wouldn't have had the issues we now face. My issue is, aside from a miracle tonight, we aren't getting a Corbyn Labour government. It isn't happened. So whilst we can complain about how we got here or who is at fault, that gammon faced fridge magnet cunt is going to get away with bloody murder and if the same road is travelled again, with the wrong person to sell the vision, then it's another fucking decade of these cunts. At least. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Anyway, fuck it. There's literally no fuckin' point in looking at 1997. We are 20 years on, I'm praying for a miracle tonight and hope I'm tattooing Corbyn's face on my face this weekend. 

[The Guest]

34 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I think anytime somebody is forced to end a sentence with 'it's as simple as that' that it's rarely as simple as that. I think Tony Blair should shut his whore mouth, but I'm not going to pretend he wasn't centre left on most issues, and his government was a mixture of centre left and left, with a few bizarre attempts at curbing some liberty in the name of security. I think Stronts probably goes a little far with 'war on civil liberties' but there certainly were issues. I could probably have swallowed some of that if it wasn't for the war. 

This is complete nonsense.  He kept the same tax rates as thatcher ffs.  They boosted spending on services with private money that could never last.  There was literally nothing left wing about him or his government.  His and his followers reaction and to Corbyn becoming leader tells you all you need to know about what he thinks of left wing policies.  He’s a fucking right wing cunt.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, The Guest said:

He’s a fucking right wing cunt.

No, he isn't. I mean, these words actually have meanings and definitions. 

 

EDIT: I don't despite the 'he' or 'cunt' parts. 

[aRdja]

Jez in hot water again after his latest ‘antisemitic’ tweet.

 

 

[moof]

6 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

They did a fucking load of good after the best part of two decades of Tory horror. From minimum wage, sustained low inflation and mortgage rates, record levels of unemployment including highest ever employment rate, youth unemployment cut by 75 fuckin' per cent and the New Deal putting 2 million people back into work, 600k kids and millions of elderly lifted out of poverty, and a booming economy; to health where they dramatically improved hospitals and care (85k more nurses, 30k more doctors, heart disease death down 150k, cancer death down by 50k, waiting lists slashed by 500k, etc); on to social policies that changes the lives of millions (2200 Sure Start centres, child benefit up 25%, 200-300 quid for pensioners in the winter, child tax credits which saved God knows how many families, eye tests, free buses for over 60s, etc) and fixed our education system seeing that 300k new teachers and assistants, and doubled - fucking doubled - the funding for every pupil in Britain, gave students whatever that weekly pay was, record numbers of literacy and numeracy and some of the best ever test results seen for teens. You're right, they did lots of good and acted how a Labour government should act on a lot of issues. 

 

They also acted in a way any government should not act with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But I don't think your 'we are where we are because of them' is remotely accurate. We are where we are because of the Tories. Had we reacted to the financial crisis the way that Labour wanted to instead of the way the Tories wanted, we would have recovered more quickly - and were doing - and wouldn't have had the issues we now face. My issue is, aside from a miracle tonight, we aren't getting a Corbyn Labour government. It isn't happened. So whilst we can complain about how we got here or who is at fault, that gammon faced fridge magnet cunt is going to get away with bloody murder and if the same road is travelled again, with the wrong person to sell the vision, then it's another fucking decade of these cunts. At least. 

I said they made social improvements, nobody has disputed that. They also continued thatchers economic legacy with deregulation, privatisation of public assets, wars; and the real kicker, contributed to the enormous inflation in wealth of the top 1/10% in comparison to the poorest 90% and the staggering income inequality. You can’t sweep that under the carpet if you’re going to accurately analyse why we are where we are today 

[Jairzinho]

5 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Jez in hot water again after his latest ‘antisemitic’ tweet.

 

 

The fucking state of that cunt.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, moof said:

I said they made social improvements, nobody has disputed that. They also continued thatchers economic legacy with deregulation, privatisation of public assets, wars; and the real kicker, contributed to the enormous inflation in wealth of the top 1/10% in comparison to the poorest 90% and the staggering income inequality. You can’t sweep that under the carpet if you’re going to accurately analyse why we are where we are today 

There was a large increase in the income in inequality, but it wasn't because the poor got poorer, they didn't. It was because the rich got so much richer. Like I say, if the choice is between the rich getting richer and the poor getting richer at a slower rate, versus the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, less well educated, less healthy and less supported, then it's an easy choice. I'm not saying it's the only choice, and I'm certainly not sweeping anything under the carpet - I've spoken about those issues many times on here. 

 

I also think the way you frame Labour's economic legacy as just a continuation of 'Thatcher's economic legacy' is a bit coarse and lacking. There certainly were some aspects of it that continued and got deeper, but the main redistribution was different. I don't necessarily have an issue with massive wealth creation as long as some of it actually gets put back into the country in a productive way. By the way, I'm sure even Rico and Stronts would agree that there does need to be regulation in the market, but there's no real point in doing it if it damages the creation of wealth that can then be redistributed. We no longer live in the 1960s, we live in a globalised economy and we have to act differently. 

[Jairzinho]

7 minutes ago, moof said:

I said they made social improvements, nobody has disputed that. They also continued thatchers economic legacy with deregulation, privatisation of public assets, wars; and the real kicker, contributed to the enormous inflation in wealth of the top 1/10% in comparison to the poorest 90% and the staggering income inequality. You can’t sweep that under the carpet if you’re going to accurately analyse why we are where we are today 

Especially re Brexit, Scotland, Northern towns, etc, etc.

 

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

8 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Jez in hot water again after his latest ‘antisemitic’ tweet.

 

 

These people are ill. They genuinely need some form of help. 

[sir roger]

2 hours ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

I'd be surprised if giving people money and stuff for free wasn't popular with a great many people. This, of course, doesn't automatically make it feasible, right or desirable.

True enough , speeding up the deaths of 130,000 is far preferable 

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

The fucking state of that cunt.

Yeah, madness. He then said how he was blocking anybody who denied his view. Weird. 

 

[Mudface]

12 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Jez in hot water again after his latest ‘antisemitic’ tweet.

 

 

What the fuck? My immediate thought was he'd been caught at a strip club or with a mistress.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Mudface said:

What the fuck? My immediate thought was he'd been caught at a strip club or with a mistress.

It's almost as if not everything is about Jews. 

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yeah, madness. He then said how he was blocking anybody who denied his view. Weird. 

 

"Anyone that points out I'm a complete fucking mentalist is getting blocked"

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Jairzinho said:

"Anyone that points out I'm a complete fucking mentalist is getting blocked"

Out of interest, is he unwell or something. His profile picture makes him look gaunt as fuck. 

[Jairzinho]

Just now, Numero Veinticinco said:

Out of interest, is he unwell or something. His profile picture makes him look gaunt as fuck. 

I think that's just how THEY look.