Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

18 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

Well there's probably some other Tories who would and Clarke when he wakes up and gets with the proposal can maybe make the compromise required. For me the ideal way is a Tory to do it as it will be extremely damaging to them. I also don't see Corbyn ever getting that backing, Swanson either, in fact if the kind rulen our Corbyn, by default I think it rules out Swanson. . As you say another labour candidate (unless perhaps it was starmer as he's brexit sec) would undermine Corbyn so it's a non-starter. So that leaves a pretty short field of others or a Tory. Maybe Lucas could be the one? She seems to be pretty well respected on all sides. 

How would that play in Poughkeepsie?  Millions of Leave voters are already getting twitchy about an establishment stitch-up to overturn Brexit.  If a hard-core Remainer from a party with one MP were to be the interim Prime Minister to push through Corbyn's proposal, it would be a massive boost to pro-Brexit parties in the General Election(and in any subsequent referendum) as it would add weight to all their wildest conspiracy theories.

[Duff Man]

7 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I'm not saying "fuck 'em" I'm saying "challenge them".  If they can come up for a reason why they would support Corbyn's plan, but not only if they went against democracy and parliamentary precedent to put up a temporary Prime Minister who isn't even a party leader, then maybe we should take them seriously.  Then and only then should we spend any time speculating about who that interim Prime Minister should be.

 

As far as I can see, the best we're getting is "I don't like him" and that's not reason enough for people who claim they don't support any sort of Brexit to allow Johnson to force through a No Deal.

That bit's key. These fuckers have been endlessly indulged by the media over the last two and a half years, with little to no scrutiny of their fantasy bullshit. A little bit of pressure from those same outlets to now actually back it up or justify their ludicrous position isn't at all unreasonable.

[Barrington Womble]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

How would that play in Poughkeepsie?  Millions of Leave voters are already getting twitchy about an establishment stitch-up to overturn Brexit.  If a hard-core Remainer from a party with one MP were to be the interim Prime Minister to push through Corbyn's proposal, it would be a massive boost to pro-Brexit parties in the General Election(and in any subsequent referendum) as it would add weight to all their wildest conspiracy theories.

For me it would be about what damage it cause to the Tories. They are positioned today as a pro-brexit party, but the reality is they're not and are split more than labour on the issue. Labour have to find a way to expose those divisions. If all a stand in PM does is organise an extension to A50 and we have GE, I don't see how that possibly plays into the hands of the pro-brexiteers in a GE.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

37 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

For me it would be about what damage it cause to the Tories. They are positioned today as a pro-brexit party, but the reality is they're not and are split more than labour on the issue. Labour have to find a way to expose those divisions. If all a stand in PM does is organise an extension to A50 and we have GE, I don't see how that possibly plays into the hands of the pro-brexiteers in a GE.

The mad fuckers stirring up "the people" against "the political elite" are already fantasising about locking "traitors" (i.e. those who oppose the No-Deal that nobody voted for) in the Tower. Whatever Parliament does next has to be done in as clearly democratic a manner as possible.  Shady backroom deals to make some random Remainer the interim PM will be electoral gold for Leave supporters. And as long as the Tories are seen as a Brexit party, that would help them.

[moof]

 

1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The mad fuckers stirring up "the people" against "the political elite" are already fantasising about locking "traitors" (i.e. those who oppose the No-Deal that nobody voted for) in the Tower. Whatever Parliament does next has to be done in as clearly democratic a manner as possible.  Shady backroom deals to make some random Remainer the interim PM will be electoral gold for Leave supporters. And as long as the Tories are seen as a Brexit party, that would help them.

Correct. Unconstitutional, anti-democratic fantasy measures will only backfire. People (I.e Swindon etc) need to get fucking real

[Barrington Womble]

2 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The mad fuckers stirring up "the people" against "the political elite" are already fantasising about locking "traitors" (i.e. those who oppose the No-Deal that nobody voted for) in the Tower. Whatever Parliament does next has to be done in as clearly democratic a manner as possible.  Shady backroom deals to make some random Remainer the interim PM will be electoral gold for Leave supporters. And as long as the Tories are seen as a Brexit party, that would help them.

I don't think I see it that way. I see the internal strife in the Tory party to be the main focus of debate, as that's a line that will keep on giving easy lines to the press day by day and there is absolutely nothing the press like more than easy headlines. 

[sir roger]

I mentioned yesterday that the Corbyn /Anybody else thing may be a red herring as other than that Guto Bebb , all of the usual Tory suspects are shying away from suggesting they would back a VoNC. Most of the media comments about Letwin focused in on him not fancying helping Corbyn , but his next sentence was not picked up on in many places & suggested he wouldn't back a VoNC whoever and was looking for 'another way' to stop No Deal Brexit.

[Barrington Womble]

6 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I mentioned yesterday that the Corbyn /Anybody else thing may be a red herring as other than that Guto Bebb , all of the usual Tory suspects are shying away from suggesting they would back a VoNC. Most of the media comments about Letwin focused in on him not fancying helping Corbyn , but his next sentence was not picked up on in many places & suggested he wouldn't back a VoNC whoever and was looking for 'another way' to stop No Deal Brexit.

I don't think there is any doubt the "rebel" tories would prefer another way. and it might be it will take another defection so Johnson loses his majority to change their stance. Once they feel they will lose a VoNC anyway, they will want to be as close to the outcome as possible I think. 

[sir roger]

Can't be that tight though Barry, we need a buffer to cover Labour's few Brexit loons like Hoey who would probably vote against even if faced with a 3-line whip , and there are ousted mp's hanging on as independents like Frank Field who might also vote against ( There may be other oddballs in other parties that I don't know about ).

[Barrington Womble]

6 hours ago, sir roger said:

Can't be that tight though Barry, we need a buffer to cover Labour's few Brexit loons like Hoey who would probably vote against even if faced with a 3-line whip , and there are ousted mp's hanging on as independents like Frank Field who might also vote against ( There may be other oddballs in other parties that I don't know about ).

Maybe. But surely they wouldn't vote to keep this government in place? 

[clangers]

1 hour ago, Barry Wom said:

Maybe. But surely they wouldn't vote to keep this government in place? 

Hoey would definitely vote for the government if it meant her beloved Brexit at all cost could be delivered. There are a handful of Labour MP's who might vote the same way plus the former Labour MP's. I read somewhere last week that they'd need a minimum of 5-6 disaffected Tories and it could require anything up to a dozen or so Tories.

[Barrington Womble]

8 hours ago, clangers said:

Hoey would definitely vote for the government if it meant her beloved Brexit at all cost could be delivered. There are a handful of Labour MP's who might vote the same way plus the former Labour MP's. I read somewhere last week that they'd need a minimum of 5-6 disaffected Tories and it could require anything up to a dozen or so Tories.

That's frightening if that is true. Hoey is finished after this parliament isn't she? So she'd be voting for early retirement? 

[Scooby Dudek]

I don't think this vote of no confidence will go through, no matter who is proposed. 

Unfortunately there are just too many self serving M.P.s about. 

A few Labour are pro Brexit and will support no deal, hating Corbyn is a bonus. 

I can't see any GIMP voting to end their political career, despite being anti Brexit.

LD, despite being anti have already said being anti Corbyn is more important.

I just can not see enough Tories, whose only objective is power, voting to bring down their own government. 

 

I believe this anyone but Corbyn is a ruse to create an obstacle, so when no deal goes through they can blame Corbyn for not being willing to compromise and secretly pro Brexit. 

 

They are all playing politics with the countries future, which is more important than principles.

[Barrington Womble]

I understand why sinn fein don't want to take their seats. But the future of their constituents is on the line here. They really should be there ousting this government and letting the republican community in Northern Ireland have a voice on brexit. Even if they only took their seats to resolve this and then go back to how it is now. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Barry Wom said:

That's frightening if that is true. Hoey is finished after this parliament isn't she? So she'd be voting for early retirement? 

She should have been booted out of the party the minute she climbed into a boat with that cunt Farridge: his entire career has always been about working against the labour movement. 

 

It also baffles me that they were allowed to campaign as "Labour Leave" when the party policy was to remain.  By all means, let them campaign, but not under that legitimising name. 

[Moo]

2 hours ago, Barry Wom said:

I understand why sinn fein don't want to take their seats. But the future of their constituents is on the line here. They really should be there ousting this government and letting the republican community in Northern Ireland have a voice on brexit. Even if they only took their seats to resolve this and then go back to how it is now. 

 

 

Edit - The link is nearly as long as the article, I'll try to find a better one! 

[Barrington Womble]

21 minutes ago, Moo said:

https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-can-stop-a-no-deal-brexit-here-s-how-1.3972121?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&mode=amp&usqp=mq331AQEKAFwAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Ffintan-o-toole-ireland-can-stop-a-no-deal-brexit-here-s-how-1.3972121

Its a good article that. But I have to say it seems very convoluted and possibly a little late. If new MPs are not in place till the end of September, Johnson may have already porogued parliament by that point. Personally I think the fight for stopping no brexit needs to be ready to go on the day parliament resumes after the summer recess. 

[Davelfc]

[moof]

Leave voters rallying behind the tories. I guess all those who thought labour had to come out hard for remain are feeling a bit sheepish when they look at that 

[moof]

1 minute ago, moof said:

 I guess all those who thought labour had to come out hard for remain are feeling a bit sheepish when they look at that 

Probably not, actually 

[Boss]

It was inevitable. As if leavers would just accept Labour and the other parties conspiring to stop Brexit and put Jeremy Corbyn in number 10 as emergency PM. 

[Scooby Dudek]

It's funny but I don't remember it ever being reported that the unelectable, divisive Corbyn lead Labour party was ever 9% points ahead of the Tories. 

[moof]

Polls need to be taken with a pinch of salt either way, but anyone who assumes the desire for leave has subsided or that remain would clearly win a second referendum needs their head checked 

[skend04]

BoJo has been on the campaign trail for the last month with a free run in the media. It's inevitable he'll be still be higher in the polls. Especially when Kantar don't prompt for the Brexit Party in their polling. I'd say it's an outlier that one.

 

 

 

[Section_31]

9 minutes ago, moof said:

Polls need to be taken with a pinch of salt either way, but anyone who assumes the desire for leave has subsided or that remain would clearly win a second referendum needs their head checked 

Remain would deffo win IMO, the leave lobby are just more willing to put their money where their mouths are, similar to trump voters. 

 

It's slacktivism vs people willing to grasp once in a lifetime opportunities to kick what they perceive to be the establishment in the balls.

 

Said it before about Corbyn but he can't be genuine when he claims to care for ordinary people because he knows beyond doubt he's dooming them to perpetual Tory rule by remaining in post.

 

I suspect it's an ever shrinking cabal of people around him who believe it's more pressing to reconstruct the party than the country. And that's shameful.

 

My mate used to go to socialist party meetings in Liverpool about ten years ago and they used to have things like guest speakers who were distantly related to Che Guevara, then hold discussions about the need to forcibly nationalise the top FTSE companies. 

 

This is now the Labour party rank and file. It's a joke, and meanwhile people will quite literally die as the Tories become increasingly right wing and remain in place for the next five to ten years.