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Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?


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Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?  

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  1. 1. Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?



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19 hours ago, lifetime fan said:

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but Barry Gardiner is a fucking embarrassment. 

 

He’d be destroyed by the hate mail and rag even more than Corbyn. 

Why do you think he's an embarrassment? He's come across as the most competant of all of them to me. He's quick thinking and never allows interviewers to put words into his mouth or push him into giving answers he doesn't want to give. 

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9 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

What would you sooner have 1. Boris Johnson re-elected or 2. A Tony Blair 2.0? I don't want a Tony Blair 2.0, but it's way preferable to the alternative. 

This argument could be made indefinitely.

 

What happens if next time both options are further to the right...then next time even further...etc.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

This argument could be made indefinitely.

 

What happens if next time both options are further to the right...then next time even further...etc.

 

 

Ok, let's have Boris for 5 years. I think we have to live with the reality England is a right wing nation, labour have lost Scotland, if you want any hope of a labour government, labour needs to win in places where Corbyn will not get elected in england as they're not winning Scotland back any time soon. Rightly or wrongly people are petrified of him. 

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Just now, Barry Wom said:

Ok, let's have Boris for 5 years. I think we have to live with the reality England is a right wing nation, labour have lost Scotland, if you want any hope of a labour government, labour needs to win in places where Corbyn will not get elected in england as they're not winning Scotland back any time soon. Rightly or wrongly people are petrified of him. 

Or just think he’s a bit shit. 

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Just now, Barry Wom said:

Ok, let's have Boris for 5 years. I think we have to live with the reality England is a right wing nation, labour have lost Scotland, if you want any hope of a labour government, labour needs to win in places where Corbyn will not get elected in england as they're not winning Scotland back any time soon. Rightly or wrongly people are petrified of him. 

Or just think he’s a bit shit. 

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7 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

Ok, let's have Boris for 5 years. I think we have to live with the reality England is a right wing nation, labour have lost Scotland, if you want any hope of a labour government, labour needs to win in places where Corbyn will not get elected in england as they're not winning Scotland back any time soon. Rightly or wrongly people are petrified of him. 

I think the next general election is incredibly difficult to predict. 

 

Sticking a centrist in charge of Labour certainly doesn't make them shoe-ins to win, in my opinion.

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4 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I think the next general election is incredibly difficult to predict. 

 

Sticking a centrist in charge of Labour certainly doesn't make them shoe-ins to win, in my opinion.

It's an absolute certainty Corbyn won't win. It doesn't necessarily have to be a full on centrist. It just can't be an 80s lefty, the country will never elect that. It's not just about Corbyn getting moved, it's John McDonnell and that fucking idiot shadow home sec.  There's too much about the labour leadership team that imo is completely unelectable. 

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Just now, Barry Wom said:

It's an absolute certainty Corbyn won't win. It doesn't necessarily have to be a full on centrist. It just can't be an 80s lefty, the country will never elect that. It's not just about Corbyn getting moved, it's John McDonnell and that fucking idiot shadow home sec.  There's too much about the labour leadership team that imo is completely unelectable. 

Why do you think they did well in the last election? Nearly 13m people voted Labour.

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3 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Why do you think they did well in the last election? Nearly 13m people voted Labour.

They didn't win. More votes than Blair maybe (can't quite remember). But all in the wrong places. May was disliked and the Tories fought an awful campaign. 

 

My constituency about 95% of people voted labour. But here's the thing, they'd have won the seat with much less. But they need the ability to win seats where they were 2nd by a 1000 or so votes. With FPTP you absolutely need to think about winning seats. It's not a national popularity contest. Oh and they lost the popularity vote too. 

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9 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Why do you think they did well in the last election? Nearly 13m people voted Labour.

And since then he’s capitalised on his popularity, or managed to let off the most incompetent government in living memory.  Starmer would

be destroying these idiots.  

 

The brexit policy is wank, trotting out the ‘its what conference wanted’ line is a as stupid as ‘we must respect the referendum ‘.  

 

Most right minded people on here think Brexit is a cluster fuck but won’t admit that’s what JC wants. 

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Just now, Barry Wom said:

They didn't win. More votes than Blair maybe (can't quite remember). But all in the wrong places. May was disliked and the Tories fought an awful campaign. 

 

My constituency about 95% of people voted labour. But here's the thing, they'd have won the seat with much less. But they need the ability to win seats where they were 2nd by a 1000 or so votes. With FPTP you absolutely need to think about winning seats. It's not a national popularity contest. Oh and they lost the popularity vote too. 

For me there are two things.

 

Whether or not you allow the game to be entirely dictated by what Rupert Murdoch deems acceptable. Some on the left do, out of pragmatism, or simply the immediacy of the current situation. Completely fair enough. Others feel that this will simply go on forever if you allow this to be the case, and you might as well fight for something worth fighting for. Change the game. Move it back to where it was before. Or infact, just where it is in other developed countries.

 

The second thing is whether or not you actually believe that some empty suit weathervane in charge would actually make it more likely Labour get in power. I'm unconvinced. They'll win some marginals in some places, and lose some that they won a couple of years ago. The membership would collapse, and the younger generation would probably fuck Labour off for good. 

 

It just isn't simple. And obviously Brexit compounds the clusterfuck that is British politics.

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21 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

For me there are two things.

 

Whether or not you allow the game to be entirely dictated by what Rupert Murdoch deems acceptable. Some on the left do, out of pragmatism, or simply the immediacy of the current situation. Completely fair enough. Others feel that this will simply go on forever if you allow this to be the case, and you might as well fight for something worth fighting for. Change the game. Move it back to where it was before. Or infact, just where it is in other developed countries.

 

The second thing is whether or not you actually believe that some empty suit weathervane in charge would actually make it more likely Labour get in power. I'm unconvinced. They'll win some marginals in some places, and lose some that they won a couple of years ago. The membership would collapse, and the younger generation would probably fuck Labour off for good. 

 

It just isn't simple. And obviously Brexit compounds the clusterfuck that is British politics.

I think there's got to be a middle ground, dare I say it, a 'third way'.

 

Where the latter incarnations of New Labour and the likes of the Lib Dems went wrong is that as well as trying to appeal to middle class liberals, they also shat on the poor. 

 

Why can't we build a party or an alliance of parties that encapsulates the politics of just not being cunts?

 

The Tories are what they are, right wing, money mad, cunts. But they only constitute a relatively small amount of the British population. What about everyone else? Especially the young?

 

New Labour did some really good shit in the early years. In fact what really pissed me off recently was Momentum tweeting a video about Blair. Johnson is about to become PM and the country is in ruins and they're going on about Tony fucking Blair. 

 

I would love to see a working class Labour party. But (a) there is no working class, of at least not what it used to be, and (b ) many of those around Corbyn wouldn't know what being working class meant if they joined a brass band and started stripping. 

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Just now, Section_31 said:

I think there's got to be a middle ground, dare I say it, a 'third way'.

 

Where the latter incarnations of New Labour and the likes of the Lib Dems went wrong is that as well as trying to appeal to middle class liberals, they also shat on the poor. 

 

Why can't we build a party or an alliance of parties that encapsulates the politics of just not being cunts?

 

The Tories are what they are, right wing, money mad, cunts. But they only constitute a relatively small amount of the British population. What about everyone else? Especially the young?

 

New Labour did some really good shit in the early years. In fact what really pissed me off recently was Momentum tweeting a video about Blair. Johnson is about to become PM and the country is in ruins and they're going on about Tony fucking Blair. 

 

I would love to see a working class Labour party. But (a) there is no working class, of at least not what it used to be, and (b ) many of those around Corbyn wouldn't know what being working class meant if they joined a brass band and started stripping. 

Agreed, but it's incredibly difficult to build that now. Especially because of Brexit.

 

The working class north and the liberal south. Then you have remain and leave. How do you create a party that works for all of them?

 

It seems whatever happens they're going to lose a huge chunk of votes to either the Brexit party, Lib Dems or Green.

 

I think the next election will see the winning party have about 8m votes.

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44 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

For me there are two things.

 

Whether or not you allow the game to be entirely dictated by what Rupert Murdoch deems acceptable. Some on the left do, out of pragmatism, or simply the immediacy of the current situation. Completely fair enough. Others feel that this will simply go on forever if you allow this to be the case, and you might as well fight for something worth fighting for. Change the game. Move it back to where it was before. Or infact, just where it is in other developed countries.

 

The second thing is whether or not you actually believe that some empty suit weathervane in charge would actually make it more likely Labour get in power. I'm unconvinced. They'll win some marginals in some places, and lose some that they won a couple of years ago. The membership would collapse, and the younger generation would probably fuck Labour off for good. 

 

It just isn't simple. And obviously Brexit compounds the clusterfuck that is British politics.

With each passing election, what Murdoch and the rest think is become less influential, papers aren't selling and people are getting their lies from social media instead. It doesn't alter large parts of the electorate though just have a zero interest in an 80's left wing politician. They are frightened of him. 

 

For me there's no doubt in my lifetime more social good came from the blair/brown years than at any point otherwise (I'm 49). There were two massive issues with those years, Blair's suck holing of the yanks which allowed us to be dragged into an illegal war (one which we would have gone in under a Tory government too and are being dragged into one now with Iran) and the global economic crash, which because brown had sold some of the family jewellery, left him open to criticism that he should have saved for the disaster, which in actual fact financially was a drop in the ocean. Nobody could have prepared for that. Could they have done more? Probably yes. Could they have avoided Iraq? Absolutely (and I realise I'm arguing against Corbyn who voted against Iraq). But this is the issue. We live in a country that believes we need a leader who is prepared to fight and they would prefer someone who fought wrongly than someone who didn't want to fight at all. 

 

It all comes down to being electable and while we remain with 1st past the post, we will continue to need leaders who can appeal in as many constituencies as possible and not just about appealing to the widest number of people. 

 

As for the party falling apart, come on. It's a fucking shambles. It's at civil war and has completely and utterly failed to prosper with the worst PM ever sitting in number 10. And as for brexit being a cluster fuck, well the labour leadership has caused that within its own ranks. What would you like them to campaign on in the next GE? The majority of the membership (by some way) would want to campaign on a stay platform. But will they be allowed to say that? No, we'll just go on this fucking merry-go-round bullshit that we have for 3 years. I'd have more respect for saying leave against the party view, but having a very clear and precise way of doing it. Even what came through the conference last year was carefully crafted to pacify the membership while allowing Corbyn to match May on incompetence on brexit. I want a labour government at the next election. Right now I don't even know if I will vote labour. In the locals and Europeans I voted green in both.  

 

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Your first sentence is confusing. The dwindling power of mainstream media is a reason to keep a left wing candidate, not get rid of them. Young people get their news from social media, and loads of them want to vote for Corbyn.

 

I agree with you that some people are put off by the baggage of an 80s left wing politican. For that reason I would be perfectly happy to see him replaced by a considerably younger left wing politician. 

 

"For me there's no doubt in my lifetime more social good came from the blair/brown years than at any point otherwise"

 

It had a shelf life, and it led to the situation we have now. It led to Scotland and huge parts of the north drifting away from Labour. It's why their vote share went down every election in that period. And it's part of the reason people voted to leave the EU. Centrism that increasingly offered less and less to the many makes the ideas of Nigel Farage attractive to some people. It's yet another reason why none of this is easy to repair.

 

In my opinion they were in an impossible position over Brexit and were always going to lose a huge chunk of voters whichever choice they took. They had to ride it out, they had to let the Tories tear themselves apart, they had to try and force an election. And all of this was made twice as difficult to retain support while gargantuan fucking cunts like Margaret Hodge spend every second of their life doing all she can to lose votes for Labour.

 

I think Corbyn is a poor leader. I think he's a poor orator. I don't think he's particularly intelligent, or charismatic. But he's given people on the left a major political party to vote for. For the first time for decades. He's enthused a generation of people. Perhaps it was an impossible task. He simply was never, ever going to be given a fair crack of the whip. Or, and this is my view, he was always only going to be a brief vehicle for the change needed. As I said, I'd happily see him replaced by a younger, more charismatic, bolder, left wing politician. But if he's forced out by the snide fucking shithouses that have spent the last three years briefing against him, and replaced by some robot cunt like David Miliband, then frankly I'm not arsed. I won't be voting Labour.

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11 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

I want a labour government at the next election. Right now I don't even know if I will vote labour. In the locals and Europeans I voted green in both.  

 

If Labour move back to the centre ground I wouldn't vote for them, and they would lose a huge amount of the support they won in the last general election. If Labour essentially just becomes Tory light then whats the point? I understand your argument of any Labour goverment is better than no Labour government and yes they did do some good things early on in New Labour, but this is partly why we are now in such a mess, because Blair picked the easy route to victory, rather than playing the longer game. 

 

Boris Johnson is going to become Prime minister, there's nothing we can do about that, yet!

I am pretty sure he will be an even bigger disaster than May and Cameron though and even with the DUP propping them up they only have a working majority of about four? now?

 

When they fail to leave again on the 31st of October, they will be absolutely finished and this is when Labour can pounce. 

 

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3 hours ago, Barry Wom said:

What would you sooner have 1. Boris Johnson re-elected or 2. A Tony Blair 2.0? I don't want a Tony Blair 2.0, but it's way preferable to the alternative. Corbyn will never become prime minister. 

 

Never mind Tony Blair 2 - Tony Blair 1 would fucking piss a general election against Johnson.

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14 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Your first sentence is confusing. The dwindling power of mainstream media is a reason to keep a left wing candidate, not get rid of them. Young people get their news from social media, and loads of them want to vote for Corbyn.

 

 

 

This.

 

May only called a snap election because they were convinced they would win with a landslide, I remember reading forecasts of winning by 100 seats!

 

Its crazy how people still use polls as a barometer for politics, despite the fact they haven't been right about anything in years! I remember just before the last election there was a Facebook live group with about 100,000 people in it and the question was who are you voting for, click an emoji to show which party you support and Labour had about 80%.

 

Labour have to stay on the left and continue to keep convincing people that the left is the best way forward.   

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46 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Your first sentence is confusing. The dwindling power of mainstream media is a reason to keep a left wing candidate, not get rid of them. Young people get their news from social media, and loads of them want to vote for Corbyn.

 

I agree with you that some people are put off by the baggage of an 80s left wing politican. For that reason I would be perfectly happy to see him replaced by a considerably younger left wing politician. 

 

"For me there's no doubt in my lifetime more social good came from the blair/brown years than at any point otherwise"

 

It had a shelf life, and it led to the situation we have now. It led to Scotland and huge parts of the north drifting away from Labour. It's why their vote share went down every election in that period. And it's part of the reason people voted to leave the EU. Centrism that increasingly offered less and less to the many makes the ideas of Nigel Farage attractive to some people. It's yet another reason why none of this is easy to repair.

 

In my opinion they were in an impossible position over Brexit and were always going to lose a huge chunk of voters whichever choice they took. They had to ride it out, they had to let the Tories tear themselves apart, they had to try and force an election. And all of this was made twice as difficult to retain support while gargantuan fucking cunts like Margaret Hodge spend every second of their life doing all she can to lose votes for Labour.

 

I think Corbyn is a poor leader. I think he's a poor orator. I don't think he's particularly intelligent, or charismatic. But he's given people on the left a major political party to vote for. For the first time for decades. He's enthused a generation of people. Perhaps it was an impossible task. He simply was never, ever going to be given a fair crack of the whip. Or, and this is my view, he was always only going to be a brief vehicle for the change needed. As I said, I'd happily see him replaced by a younger, more charismatic, bolder, left wing politician. But if he's forced out by the snide fucking shithouses that have spent the last three years briefing against him, and replaced by some robot cunt like David Miliband, then frankly I'm not arsed. I won't be voting Labour.

I understand where you're coming from and agree with large parts. But I cannot bring myself to want to create a situation that will allow Boris Johnson the keys to the country for 5 years plus however long he can suck out of this term. 

 

As for your comment about me mentioning people get their news from social media, social media works two ways. It promotes far right politics and fears and brings them into the mainstream every bit as much as they've helped the left have something the rally behind. That's my point. And it's not just this country, it's got trump in to the White house too - and another example of knowing it's not about winning the popular vote, but winning in the right places. 

 

And I'd have David milliband before Johnson every day of the week. I think labour have better and will do better, but he's still a better option than Johnson. 

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Nobody on the left or the far right is voting for David Miliband.

 

The sort of media that supports him is dying.

 

And if your only requirement is someone being a better option than Johnson then I suppose what we want from the Labour party is quite different.

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