Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[cloggypop]

Ade Edmondson as McCluskey with Robbie Coltrane as Watson.

[Section_31]

I just don't understand what the end game is here. Corbyn isn't popular, so let's say his supporters do replace the MPs they don't like with their own people, is the Labour party going to suddenly become more popular? Will the country suddenly have a road to Damascus moment en mass and realise Corbyn is the man and the reason he's not popular is purely and simply down to the S*n and the Mail? 

 

Surely the question has to be what we want the Labour party to do, what I want - badly - is for it to prevent perpetual Tory rule, which is what we're set for under the current leadership. 

 

Corbyn may stay king but he'll rule a pretty shit kingdom. 

[Neil G]

Ade Edmondson as McCluskey with Robbie Coltrane as Watson.

I'd have Alexei Sayle as McCluskey personally. Coltrane as Watson is a no-brainer.

[magicrat]

I just don't understand what the end game is here. Corbyn isn't popular, so let's say his supporters do replace the MPs they don't like with their own people, is the Labour party going to suddenly become more popular? Will the country suddenly have a road to Damascus moment en mass and realise Corbyn is the man and the reason he's not popular is purely and simply down to the S*n and the Mail? 

 

Surely the question has to be what we want the Labour party to do, what I want - badly - is for it to prevent perpetual Tory rule, which is what we're set for under the current leadership. 

 

Corbyn may stay king but he'll rule a pretty shit kingdom. 

 

It's desperate. He will never win a general election so what the hell is going on.  I find myself hoping every morning to find Corbyn has faced facts however unjust that seems,  The injustice being done to the British people by failing to take the fight to the Tories is far worse,

[Boss]

I just don't understand what the end game is here. Corbyn isn't popular, so let's say his supporters do replace the MPs they don't like with their own people, is the Labour party going to suddenly become more popular? Will the country suddenly have a road to Damascus moment en mass and realise Corbyn is the man and the reason he's not popular is purely and simply down to the S*n and the Mail? 

 

Surely the question has to be what we want the Labour party to do, what I want - badly - is for it to prevent perpetual Tory rule, which is what we're set for under the current leadership. 

 

Corbyn may stay king but he'll rule a pretty shit kingdom. 

 

The end game is to have a party that doesn't sell off all our resources and looks after the population of the country as opposed to big business interests, wealthy donors, lobbyists, big pharma, the arms trade, bullingdon club members and the Rothschild's vested interests on the global stage. 

 

Perpetual Tory rule is having a choice between a red tie and a blue tie when they're the same thing. It's the illusion of choice that fools you into pining for something that's ostensibly identical to what you hate. 

[magicrat]

The end game is to have a party that doesn't sell off all our resources and looks after the population of the country as opposed to big business interests, wealthy donors, lobbyists, big pharma, the arms trade, bullingdon club members and the Rothschild's vested interests on the global stage. 

 

Perpetual Tory rule is having a choice between a red tie and a blue tie when they're the same thing. It's the illusion of choice that fools you into pining for something that's ostensibly identical to what you hate. 

 

The build it and they will come argument.  Sure I would love those ideals to become a reality but it just won't happen.  A Labour government , even a Blairite one, is better than the extreme right wing of the Tory party, Politics has always been a compromise to some degree and will remain so long after Cortbyn has departed 

[Jairzinho]

The end game is to have a party that doesn't sell off all our resources and looks after the population of the country as opposed to big business interests, wealthy donors, lobbyists, big pharma, the arms trade, bullingdon club members and the Rothschild's vested interests on the global stage. 

 

Perpetual Tory rule is having a choice between a red tie and a blue tie when they're the same thing. It's the illusion of choice that fools you into pining for something that's ostensibly identical to what you hate. 

 

Indeed. The end game isn't about Corbyn.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Boss knows.

[Section_31]

The end game is to have a party that doesn't sell off all our resources and looks after the population of the country as opposed to big business interests, wealthy donors, lobbyists, big pharma, the arms trade, bullingdon club members and the Rothschild's vested interests on the global stage. 

 

Perpetual Tory rule is having a choice between a red tie and a blue tie when they're the same thing. It's the illusion of choice that fools you into pining for something that's ostensibly identical to what you hate. 

 

While I agree that that would be great, it's not going to happen though, certainly not unless there's some kind of cataclysmic event like a war or a depression - which is the only time you get any real, radical social changes in this country. 

 

What we'll end up with is a Corbyn Labour party with less MPs that it's got now merely turning up at marches and town hall meetings and talking about all the good stuff it's going to do if it ever gets in power, meanwhile people are getting shit on left and right by Tory twats. 

 

As I said earlier in the thread, the stuff Corbyn and Momentum are espousing is nothing new. There's Socialist parties up and down the country doing it and have been doing it for years, why didn't people join them en mass and why didn't they ever get a seat in Parliament or on a council? My mate used to go to Socialist meetings in Liverpool where they'd have what sounded like genuinely fascinating discussions with speakers from South America/Palestine etc, but only a handful or people turning up to hear them. 

 

You have to play the cards you've been dealt and the cards we've been dealt is a country that by and large can't be arsed with old school Labour politics. 

 

Was I a new Labour man? Not really, were they infinitely better than these scum? Absolutely. 

[Jairzinho]

 

You have to play the cards you've been dealt and the cards we've been dealt is a country that by and large can't be arsed with old school Labour politics. 

 

 

 

But they're only the cards you've/we've been dealt because that's how the pack has been shuffled.

 

If you (the generic you) have no intention of reversing any of the last 40 years of cuntery then what is point? How long does this go on for? Until the end of time?

 

There is nothing remotely radical about Corbyn's politics. It's normal stuff across Europe, it was normal stuff here. So surely the plan has to be to change the conditions of the country so that it can be normal here again. Rather than just accepting the impact of the likes of Murdoch, and in fact what Blairism has caused. Because while I have no doubt most people on here would prefer a repeat of those years (possibly without Iraq) than what we currently have, the former caused the latter. 

 

Corbyn being an ineffective leader is a completely different argument.

[Section_31]

But they're only the cards you've/we've been dealt because that's how the pack has been shuffled.

 

If you (the generic you) have no intention of reversing any of the last 40 years of cuntery then what is point? How long does this go on for? Until the end of time?

 

There is nothing remotely radical about Corbyn's politics. It's normal stuff across Europe, it was normal stuff here. So surely the plan has to be to change the conditions of the country so that it can be normal here again. Rather than just accepting the impact of the likes of Murdoch, and in fact what Blairism has caused. Because while I have no doubt most people on here would prefer a repeat of those years (possibly without Iraq) than what we currently have, the former caused the latter. 

 

Corbyn being an ineffective leader is a completely different argument.

 

Again, I don't disagree with any of that, I'd love a socialist government, absolutely love it, but it's a right wing/centre right country. The only smatterings of Labour you see on the map are in areas directly shit on by Thatcher, the valleys, the North East, North West and inner London - and even in those areas their Labour loyalty is born out of the same reasons as mine - i.e 'anyone but the Tories'. There's no movement there, people aren't politically engaged, they just want the Tories to stop shitting on them, and the ones who aren't being shit on by the Tories don't give a shit either way. In fact, I don't even think this is a particularly 'political' country.  

 

Even at the height of Thatcher's unpopularity Labour couldn't get a sniff, fuck, even Liverpool was a Tory city up until a few decades ago. The only time Labour got in was when they reined in the red banners and shit. 

 

Labour doesn't win elections, the Tories lose them. 

[Scooby Dudek]

I also believe that we would all prefer a right Labour government to a Tory government is now a mute point. As was shown in 2010 and even more worryingly in 2015  (after 5 years of Tory attacks) the Labour we are nice Tories approach no longer works.

Thus, the left of the party, who had been told for 20 odd years, keep quiet and we will win and will at least stop the worse attacks from being carried out, realised this was no longer true.

 

The fact that Labour lost Scotland to left sounding policies and you have people who would never vote Tory, (due to remembering their previous female leader) going out and voting UKIP, due to feeling totally abandoned by New Labour, the line in the sand was crossed. Spouting Tory lite policies no longer wins elections for Labour. 

 

To me, this has a lot to do with the narrative of the crash of 2008, where it was all spun, and not challenged, as Labour recklessness. Hence, the only people who can slash and burn with conviction we voted into power.

Again due to a lack of Labour challenging the narrative, we are now a country of immigrants and benefit scroungers, with Labours policies being we will cut nicer than the Tories.

 

It is understandable that working class people feel they have been let down by Labour, switching to SNP and UKIP, and selfish Tory cunts who want a government to slash and burn (as long as it doesn't effect them) will return to their home and away from a less cunty New Labour party.

 

 

A new Labour leader, spouting Tory lite policies, would get nowhere near power in 2020, despite the fact the Tories have failed miserably on their own economic policies of deficit reduction, they will continue to sell the unchallenged lie that only they can fix the economy.

I believe JC is hanging on until the party conference where they plan to change the leadership election rules, to make it a lot easier to get a left leaning candidate on the ballot, after that I think he will step down.  

[cloggypop]

The Dutch labour party (PvdA) just got destroyed in last week's elections for moving too far from the left.

 

They now find themselves way behind GroenLinks (Green Left) and the Socialist Party in numbers of seats.

[Jairzinho]

Again, I don't disagree with any of that, I'd love a socialist government, absolutely love it, but it's a right wing/centre right country. The only smatterings of Labour you see on the map are in areas directly shit on by Thatcher, the valleys, the North East, North West and inner London - and even in those areas their Labour loyalty is born out of the same reasons as mine - i.e 'anyone but the Tories'. There's no movement there, people aren't politically engaged, they just want the Tories to stop shitting on them, and the ones who aren't being shit on by the Tories don't give a shit either way. In fact, I don't even think this is a particularly 'political' country.  

 

Even at the height of Thatcher's unpopularity Labour couldn't get a sniff, fuck, even Liverpool was a Tory city up until a few decades ago. The only time Labour got in was when they reined in the red banners and shit. 

 

Labour doesn't win elections, the Tories lose them. 

 

I definitely agree with this bit. But I think it can be a source of optimism. People can be persuaded not to buy into the horrible right wing, racist shit, and the accompanying "Turkey voting for Christmas" economics of the right (and those that claim to be the centre). It's not Italy where lots of people identify as Fascists or Communists. It is a deeply ignorant country, but that isn't intrinsic. There is no reason why someone that is British should know less about politics or economics than someone that is Danish, or Portuguese, or whatever. The reason the Brits and the Yanks have cunt governments is because they have cunt media, and cunt companies, and a cunt banking sector, etc. This stuff can be changed, but it has to be the aim. People on the left can't just accept the position politically that the currently has been dragged to. It has to be dragged back.

[Jairzinho]

I also believe that we would all prefer a right Labour government to a Tory government is now a mute point. As was shown in 2010 and even more worryingly in 2015  (after 5 years of Tory attacks) the Labour we are nice Tories approach no longer works.

Thus, the left of the party, who had been told for 20 odd years, keep quiet and we will win and will at least stop the worse attacks from being carried out, realised this was no longer true.

 

The fact that Labour lost Scotland to left sounding policies and you have people who would never vote Tory, (due to remembering their previous female leader) going out and voting UKIP, due to feeling totally abandoned by New Labour, the line in the sand was crossed. Spouting Tory lite policies no longer wins elections for Labour. 

 

To me, this has a lot to do with the narrative of the crash of 2008, where it was all spun, and not challenged, as Labour recklessness. Hence, the only people who can slash and burn with conviction we voted into power.

Again due to a lack of Labour challenging the narrative, we are now a country of immigrants and benefit scroungers, with Labours policies being we will cut nicer than the Tories.

 

It is understandable that working class people feel they have been let down by Labour, switching to SNP and UKIP, and selfish Tory cunts who want a government to slash and burn (as long as it doesn't effect them) will return to their home and away from a less cunty New Labour party.

 

 

A new Labour leader, spouting Tory lite policies, would get nowhere near power in 2020, despite the fact the Tories have failed miserably on their own economic policies of deficit reduction, they will continue to sell the unchallenged lie that only they can fix the economy.

I believe JC is hanging on until the party conference where they plan to change the leadership election rules, to make it a lot easier to get a left leaning candidate on the ballot, after that I think he will step down.  

 

Great post. Blairism had a shelf life, it wouldn't work now.

[Boss]

While I agree that that would be great, it's not going to happen though, certainly not unless there's some kind of cataclysmic event like a war or a depression - which is the only time you get any real, radical social changes in this country. 

 

What we'll end up with is a Corbyn Labour party with less MPs that it's got now merely turning up at marches and town hall meetings and talking about all the good stuff it's going to do if it ever gets in power, meanwhile people are getting shit on left and right by Tory twats. 

 

As I said earlier in the thread, the stuff Corbyn and Momentum are espousing is nothing new. There's Socialist parties up and down the country doing it and have been doing it for years, why didn't people join them en mass and why didn't they ever get a seat in Parliament or on a council? My mate used to go to Socialist meetings in Liverpool where they'd have what sounded like genuinely fascinating discussions with speakers from South America/Palestine etc, but only a handful or people turning up to hear them. 

 

You have to play the cards you've been dealt and the cards we've been dealt is a country that by and large can't be arsed with old school Labour politics. 

 

Was I a new Labour man? Not really, were they infinitely better than these scum? Absolutely. 

 

That could well be true. But it's really about a time beyond Corbyn. Corbyn is just a facilitator for the change that needs to happen.

 

Neither party represents the people anymore. Both are bloated corpses propping each other up with their own rigamortis (Hitchens). They're both bought and sold by vested interests and lack any degree of scruples. You only have to look at the Tory about-face from staunch Remainers to rampant Brexiteers in the wake of the Brexit vote as proof of how out of touch they are.

 

Corbyn, at least, is not morally bankrupt and that alone is commendable in the sea of corruption and inequity that comprises politics. 

 

The only things keeping these two in any semblance of power is the archaic first past the post system and the confirmation bias that only Labour or Tory can win an election. If proportional representation is brought in the change will happen much quicker, but an independent Scotland, a United Ireland and a new system rising from the ashes of the old system is an inevitability at this point. The only ones hell bent on stopping it are the elites, who happen to be the ones in power. A sea change is going to happen. It's already started.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Just accept it, it's a country full of cunts.

[Section_31]

Just accept it, it's a country full of cunts.

 

Browbeaten and servile. The only radical social change to ever occur in this country happened directly after wars when there were loads of jobless men around who knew how to use guns. There's a reason slavery never took off in the UK, we had the working class. 

[Strontium]

The Dutch labour party (PvdA) just got destroyed in last week's elections for moving too far from the left.

 

It's more that they were a minority partner in a coalition who the voters deemed to have insufficiently influenced government policy. Dutch voters seem to share the unrealistic expectations of British voters in expecting a junior coalition partner not to have to make more compromises.

[cloggypop]

 

 

It's more that they were a minority partner in a coalition who the voters deemed to have insufficiently influenced government policy. Dutch voters seem to share the unrealistic expectations of British voters in expecting a junior coalition partner not to have to make more compromises.

No. There is a bit of a Lib Dem feel to it for sure but the overwhelming feeling is that they deserted their roots and moved too far from the left. This comes from their own policy rather than failing to restrain Rutte.

 

It is always a coalition here. Always. It will be interesting to see who makes up the next one as it's possible they will need GroenLinks in there to make up the numbers but I'm not sure they will want to.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It's more that they were a minority partner in a coalition who the voters deemed to have insufficiently influenced government policy. Dutch voters seem to share the unrealistic expectations of British voters in expecting a junior coalition partner not to have to make more compromises.

Clegg's gone. Get over it.

[magicrat]

Said this a few times but Labour needs to swing behind PR and work with the Lib Dems to oust the Tories,

[VladimirIlyich]

Again, I don't disagree with any of that, I'd love a socialist government, absolutely love it, but it's a right wing/centre right country. The only smatterings of Labour you see on the map are in areas directly shit on by Thatcher, the valleys, the North East, North West and inner London - and even in those areas their Labour loyalty is born out of the same reasons as mine - i.e 'anyone but the Tories'. There's no movement there, people aren't politically engaged, they just want the Tories to stop shitting on them, and the ones who aren't being shit on by the Tories don't give a shit either way. In fact, I don't even think this is a particularly 'political' country.

 

Even at the height of Thatcher's unpopularity Labour couldn't get a sniff, fuck, even Liverpool was a Tory city up until a few decades ago. The only time Labour got in was when they reined in the red banners and shit.

 

Labour doesn't win elections, the Tories lose them.

Disagree with this country being a right wing country,it simply isnt. Pretty much all of London and most big cities are Labour strongholds,and have been for decades. Unfortunately,and like society in general,the minority has most of the wealth and therefore power. I think the country is actually left of centre but the option is not there(at least not in the mainstream) so they just vote(or dont vote at all) for something different without knowing why. Ignorance abounds and apathy flourishes.

[Section_31]

Disagree with this country being a right wing country,it simply isnt. Pretty much all of London and most big cities are Labour strongholds,and have been for decades. Unfortunately,and like society in general,the minority has most of the wealth and therefore power. I think the country is actually left of centre but the option is not there(at least not in the mainstream) so they just vote(or dont vote at all) for something different without knowing why. Ignorance abounds and apathy flourishes.

A few cities in the North are, nobody south of Crew gives a shit. Even Liverpool was Tory until the late 60s, early 70s. Without Scotland we're fucked.

[Lee909]

Not sure i agree anymore

So many of the northern and midland strong holds for labour seem to have lost enough votes to splinter groups and the right that labour cant hold the seats.