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Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?  

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  1. 1. Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?



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The problem is how do you run a working class party when the working class has been destroyed? There quite literally is no working class any more, certainly not an organised one. There's no movement there or community.

 

The only other ammo  you've got is liberal people, people who want a fairer society regardless of their own personal background. There are plenty of people like that, especially younger people, indeed many of these flocked to Momentum. 

 

One problem is that the Tories skillfully positioned themselves to actually appear Liberal, even though they weren't, by embracing headline grabbing stuff like gay marriage. I think that's a really skillful way of dividing your opposition. 

 

For example, I know loads of people who consider themselves liberal who are very 'right on' when it comes to LGBT rights, multiculturalism etc, but like to trot out the 'people on benefits have big tellies' line. These people can be neutralised by going about things the way Cameron and Blair did, you can pull them along with you without neccessarily dropping policies that pummel the truly desperately poor and disabled. 

 

When this goes tits up is when you don't package your right wingness correctly. Trump's regime for example, has caused its biggest outraged over immigration and LGBT rights, because the right on liberals can't abide it. Meanwhile, for decades, the country has actually made an industry out of putting poor people in prison and destroying whole inner cities in pursuit of globalisation (which said trendy liberals also embrace).

 

The only way Labour can win, in my view, is by becoming a liberal party and for the Tories to revert to their old ways of screwing absolutely fucking everyone. If they, for example, start doing stuff like bringing back Fox Hunting etc.

 

The working class will only be revived when working class jobs return to communities and their labour forces and estates mobilise. That ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Failing that, we need some kind of move towards proportional representation.  

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It doesnt matter who the leader is, it'll be a Tory govt in 2020.

 

Mong nation.

 

Mongs are usually harmless people. It's the greedy, short-sighted authoritarian, tabloid-reading pricks that dig their own graves.

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This is such a misnomer. The Labour Party was actually infiltrated by Blairites which took them away from their tradional left wing, working class policies. How anybody can describe Corbyn as hard left is beyond me. Even Stephen Hawking when criticising Corbyn this week, actually said that this policies are sound.

 

There is no way that the party will be allowed to move back to it's traditional position, it is now trapped in Tory-lite-ville. Hence my assertion that the Labour Party is fucked.

 

The only was it becomes 'credible' again is by getting MSM backing, which is by embracing Blairite values once again. 

 

I can partly agree but politicians like Wilson and Callaghan were pretty canny guys and steered a centre left course, After they left then there was a an attempt to move to the left under Foot until Kinnock pulled it back . Blair got his opportunity after Smith's untimely death

 

Corbyn;s policies are not the real issue , Its him a and the image that is now too far ingrained in the public conciousness to make him electable, He also doesn't play the games in front of the cameras to batter the government at every turn, Whipping his MP's to waive through the A50 bill is bonkers in many peoples eyes,  The words  "we don't have an opposition at the moment" is heard everywhere you go..

 

Maybe it is Blairite values or nothing for Labour. Leave out the Iraq adventure and I kwow what I would prefer

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The problem is how do you run a working class party when the working class has been destroyed? There quite literally is no working class any more, certainly not an organised one. There's no movement there or community.

 

The only other ammo  you've got is liberal people, people who want a fairer society regardless of their own personal background. There are plenty of people like that, especially younger people, indeed many of these flocked to Momentum. 

 

One problem is that the Tories skillfully positioned themselves to actually appear Liberal, even though they weren't, by embracing headline grabbing stuff like gay marriage. I think that's a really skillful way of dividing your opposition. 

 

For example, I know loads of people who consider themselves liberal who are very 'right on' when it comes to LGBT rights, multiculturalism etc, but like to trot out the 'people on benefits have big tellies' line. These people can be neutralised by going about things the way Cameron and Blair did, you can pull them along with you without neccessarily dropping policies that pummel the truly desperately poor and disabled. 

 

When this goes tits up is when you don't package your right wingness correctly. Trump's regime for example, has caused its biggest outraged over immigration and LGBT rights, because the right on liberals can't abide it. Meanwhile, for decades, the country has actually made an industry out of putting poor people in prison and destroying whole inner cities in pursuit of globalisation (which said trendy liberals also embrace).

 

The only way Labour can win, in my view, is by becoming a liberal party and for the Tories to revert to their old ways of screwing absolutely fucking everyone. If they, for example, start doing stuff like bringing back Fox Hunting etc.

 

The working class will only be revived when working class jobs return to communities and their labour forces and estates mobilise. That ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Failing that, we need some kind of move towards proportional representation.  

 

Fully agree mate . It would fall far short of what some on here would like to happen but we can't go on with these cunts screwing us senseless and a prime minister howling with laughter at the prospect . It will be complacency ( and possible foxhunting !!) that kills them

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I can partly agree but politicians like Wilson and Callaghan were pretty canny guys and steered a centre left course, After they left then there was a an attempt to move to the left under Foot until Kinnock pulled it back . Blair got his opportunity after Smith's untimely death

 

Corbyn;s policies are not the real issue , Its him a and the image that is now too far ingrained in the public conciousness to make him electable, He also doesn't play the games in front of the cameras to batter the government at every turn, Whipping his MP's to waive through the A50 bill is bonkers in many peoples eyes,  The words  "we don't have an opposition at the moment" is heard everywhere you go..

 

Maybe it is Blairite values or nothing for Labour. Leave out the Iraq adventure and I kwow what I would prefer

And they will do that to every left leaning leader. That's my point exactly.

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This is such a misnomer. The Labour Party was actually infiltrated by Blairites which took them away from their tradional left wing, working class policies. How anybody can describe Corbyn as hard left is beyond me. Even Stephen Hawking when criticising Corbyn this week, actually said that this policies are sound.

 

There is no way that the party will be allowed to move back to it's traditional position, it is now trapped in Tory-lite-ville. Hence my assertion that the Labour Party is fucked.

 

The only was it becomes 'credible' again is by getting MSM backing, which is by embracing Blairite values once again.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of parties within parties at all but Momentum certainly seems more democratic than Progress which was set up as a limited company.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/03/labour-party-within-progress

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Others have probably said it already but they didn't need to preempt the narrative they just needed to know the ins and outs of the return itself, anything that comes their way can then be debunked on the spot.

It was debunked - and yet here we all are, obediently discussing Corbyn's "incompetence".

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Mongs are usually harmless people. It's the greedy, short-sighted authoritarian, tabloid-reading pricks that dig their own graves.

How kind of you to offer to dig their graves for them.

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It was debunked - and yet here we all are, obediently discussing Corbyn's "incompetence".

Because the incompetence, in responding, compounded the issue and allowed the story to generate.

 

If they'd known the return inside out you wouldn't have had the two attempts to explain it and it would have been shutdown straight away. It's fairly basic.

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Because the incompetence, in responding, compounded the issue and allowed the story to generate.

 

If they'd known the return inside out you wouldn't have had the two attempts to explain it and it would have been shutdown straight away. It's fairly basic.

 

 

In one.

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It's interesting that one thing unions over here always advocated was education, yet this Tory regime has clamped down on education from the outset. Adult education is virtually non existent and they've introduced learning by rote in an attempt to replicate a generation of chinese robots. Both the UK and the USA are unique in the western world in that they actively celebrate ignorance. 

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Because the incompetence, in responding, compounded the issue and allowed the story to generate.

 

If they'd known the return inside out you wouldn't have had the two attempts to explain it and it would have been shutdown straight away. It's fairly basic.

I can't help thinking of it this way :-

 

Suppose you go to a club and the bouncer stops you and says "No trainers." You know that you've specifically put your good shoes on, because you're aware of the trainer ban. Still, the bouncer causes you a few seconds of confusion, during which you check your feet, before you can point out the obvious fact that you're wearing shoes.

 

During that few seconds, everyone starts calling you a dickhead and saying that you don't even know what's on your feet (while ignoring the bouncer's original fuck-up).

 

Maybe my take on this is coloured by the fact that the lie had been comprehensively debunked before I even heard it.

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Both the UK and the USA are unique in the western world in that they actively celebrate ignorance. 

 

Learning things is for poofs.

 

and "what am I like, lol?"

 

A cunt. A thick fucking cunt. That's what you're like.

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I remember reading comments in papers on zero hours and loss of workers rights and tonnes of self employed people saying fuck you guys we dont get holiday pay or guaranteed work about fucking time, deal with it. Now the tax has gone up for self employed they are crying saying we shouldn't have to pay it because we don't get paid holidays, guaranteed work. I sympathise but for those who applauded the attacks on workers rights I can't help but feel less sympathy you wanted others to suffer the negative aspects of your choices this is how it feels when it's reversed. Ultimately they fuck us all in the end.

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It's interesting that one thing unions over here always advocated was education, yet this Tory regime has clamped down on education from the outset. Adult education is virtually non existent and they've introduced learning by rote in an attempt to replicate a generation of chinese robots. Both the UK and the USA are unique in the western world in that they actively celebrate ignorance. 

 

Who else would vote for Cameron and Trump except the ignorant?

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I can't help thinking of it this way :-

 

Suppose you go to a club and the bouncer stops you and says "No trainers." You know that you've specifically put your good shoes on, because you're aware of the trainer ban. Still, the bouncer causes you a few seconds of confusion, during which you check your feet, before you can point out the obvious fact that you're wearing shoes.

 

During that few seconds, everyone starts calling you a dickhead and saying that you don't even know what's on your feet (while ignoring the bouncer's original fuck-up).

 

Maybe my take on this is coloured by the fact that the lie had been comprehensively debunked before I even heard it.

I think we need to hold people who run the country to a higher standard than 'it's not their fault, they panicked'.

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And they will do that to every left leaning leader. That's my point exactly.

 

Is any left leaning leader going be vigourously tested on how he can deliver a Labour victory . Of course.

If you're selling apples and people only want oranges you're fucked. I still maintain the bulk of the British electorate sit in centre ground.

so for any left winger to succeed he has a massive job persuading enough people to take a new political direction,  Only UKIP  have managed that with any success and that has been by picking the low hanging fruit many of which are borderline racists,   

I think Section made the point earlier that the old working classes have largely disappeared so what do you expect the Labour party to do?

Stick firmly to its left wing ideals and give up hope of winning power or take the Blairite approach and have a broader appeal.

If they choose the former then the party will probably split and a centreist opposition will fill the void eventually, PR is what is required and thats were Labour should be heading together with the Lib Dems.

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Is any left leaning leader going be vigourously tested on how he can deliver a Labour victory . Of course.

If you're selling apples and people only want oranges you're fucked. I still maintain the bulk of the British electorate sit in centre ground.

so for any left winger to succeed he has a massive job persuading enough people to take a new political direction,  Only UKIP  have managed that with any success and that has been by picking the low hanging fruit many of which are borderline racists,   

I think Section made the point earlier that the old working classes have largely disappeared so what do you expect the Labour party to do?

Stick firmly to its left wing ideals and give up hope of winning power or take the Blairite approach and have a broader appeal.

If they choose the former then the party will probably split and a centreist opposition will fill the void eventually, PR is what is required and thats were Labour should be heading together with the Lib Dems.

 

Given that Johnson is foreign secretary and May is tying her horse to Trump I reckon that a lot of the population can be won over with the appearance of competence. What you actually need is someone that has Corbyn's values, can sell a bit of the right compromise to the right of the party and can dress this compromise up in New Labour presentation - with the very specific, laser guided focus to pick your battles, stand up for your values but stand up for them in the way that least alienates people that can't be doing with Trans students telling them they have to drink Frappes but are actually quite decent people. On issues of identity you have a stock stonewall response of fairness, respect and tolerance for all but you don't spend too much time fighting there, you relentlessly move away from it to the economy, honesty and competence. The Tories have always been weak on trust - because people know they are slimey cunts, they just live with that if the money keeps rolling in.

 

It requires quite a lot of slight of hand unfortunately; but if that is what is now required then we need to see it. 

 

Oh, and you specifically target the individual that is facing you in the media if they go after you with an agenda. You look to unpick their brand and damage them. You make it personally uncomfortable and possibly career threatening to bring bullshit to your door in the mainstream media. You take no shit. You stop begging for fairness and start bodybagging people to get it. There has to be a cost for not being even handed with you, a steep, uncomfortable, personal cost. You Paxman every cunt that speaks to you the wrong way so that they carry that shit around with them for the next month as a stamp of crossing you. You cannot be painted as weak if every time someone sees you on tv (which may be rare) you are aggressively, almost humiliatingly, killing some cunt that is trying to sell some weak shit. You aim, in every interaction to be moving the overton window of the mainstream voter (not of the political media) a tiny increment to the left. Maybe at the same time you have a second in command passing coded messages to the liberal wing that you have the right values, but that this is the only way they get to live.

 

If I could be sure that the right leader had the values I want I would happily sign off on pretty much anything goes now to get the chance to implement them.

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Given that Johnson is foreign secretary and May is tying her horse to Trump I reckon that a lot of the population can be won over with the appearance of competence. What you actually need is someone that has Corbyn's values, can sell a bit of the right compromise to the right of the party and can dress this compromise up in New Labour presentation - with the very specific, laser guided focus to pick your battles, stand up for your values but stand up for them in the way that least alienates people that can't be doing with Trans students telling them they have to drink Frappes but are actually quite decent people. On issues of identity you have a stock stonewall response of fairness, respect and tolerance for all but you don't spend too much time fighting there, you relentlessly move away from it to the economy, honesty and competence. The Tories have always been weak on trust - because people know they are slimey cunts, they just live with that if the money keeps rolling in.

 

It requires quite a lot of slight of hand unfortunately; but if that is what is now required then we need to see it. 

 

Oh, and you specifically target the individual that is facing you in the media if they go after you with an agenda. You look to unpick their brand and damage them. You make it personally uncomfortable and possibly career threatening to bring bullshit to your door in the mainstream media. You take no shit. You stop begging for fairness and start bodybagging people to get it. There has to be a cost for not being even handed with you, a steep, uncomfortable, personal cost. You Paxman every cunt that speaks to you the wrong way so that they carry that shit around with them for the next month as a stamp of crossing you. You cannot be painted as weak if every time someone sees you on tv (which may be rare) you are aggressively, almost humiliatingly, killing some cunt that is trying to sell some weak shit. You aim, in every interaction to be moving the overton window of the mainstream voter (not of the political media) a tiny increment to the left. Maybe at the same time you have a second in command passing coded messages to the liberal wing that you have the right values, but that this is the only way they get to live.

 

If I could be sure that the right leader had the values I want I would happily sign off on pretty much anything goes now to get the chance to implement them.

 

Johnson hardly exudes competence either.

We do need a real bruiser to shove all the lies back down their throats. Theresa May would be toast if we had anyone who had the right skills and was quick on their feet, Blair in his prime would have wiped the floor with her. That is not a call for Blair to return but he was more than a match for any of the Tory cunts when it came to facing them down,  Corbyn makes some good points then just fizzles out

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Johnson hardly exudes competence either.

We do need a real bruiser to shove all the lies back down their throats. Theresa May would be toast if we had anyone who had the right skills and was quick on their feet, Blair in his prime would have wiped the floor with her. That is not a call for Blair to return but he was more than a match for any of the Tory cunts when it came to facing them down,  Corbyn makes some good points then just fizzles out

Blair was boss

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