Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[cloggypop]

VIP Glastonbury tickets aren't cheap you know

[magicrat]

That's the single issue in the media.

 

When the bills come in, tens of millions of people will tell you that we are really not beyond austerity.

 

There are small signs that the economic fallout is starting to erode support for Brexit but sadly the lemmings are going to need a full blown kick in wallet to start squealing in sufficient number to rattle May . 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

There are small signs that the economic fallout is starting to erode support for Brexit but sadly the lemmings are going to need a full blown kick in wallet to start squealing in sufficient number to rattle May .

We are all getting a full-blown kick everyday. The trick is to make people see who it is who is doing the kicking.

[Anny Road]

So do you remain guys agree with Cameron and Major?

[Barrington Womble]

An extract from today's Times. Here's your new Centrist party, Barry. Enjoy.

 

 

Sadly, it'll probably finish off labour. This is why labour has to fight for the centre ground instead of being made up party members and nobody else like corbyn.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

So do you remain guys agree with Cameron and Major?

About what?

[magicrat]

We are all getting a full-blown kick everyday. The trick is to make people see who it is who is doing the kicking.

 

The key is Brexit which is why Labour need to be hammering the issue  , That void is already starting to be filled by others. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

The key is Brexit which is why Labour need to be hammering the issue  , That void is already starting to be filled by others. 

The passage of the Article 50 bill really isn't a day-to-day concern.

 

Depressed wages, job insecurity, decreasing access to public services, inability to find a place to live, etc.  These are the things that are keeping people (outside Westminster and the media) awake at night.

[magicrat]

The passage of the Article 50 bill really isn't a day-to-day concern.

 

Depressed wages, job insecurity, decreasing access to public services, inability to find a place to live, etc.  These are the things that are keeping people (outside Westminster and the media) awake at night.

 

 

 

A 50 will pass its what happens next , May exists because of and solely for Brexit,   The decline of public services , inflation and squeeze on living standards can be linked to Brexit.  50 billion on exit fees alone.  Why cant that be spent on the NHS,   Doctors and nurses being discouraged from coming because of the immigration rules, racism and low wages made worse by the weak pound.

 

If the public can be persuaded that Brexit is a big part of the problem then she is in real trouble, 

[Rico1304]

A 50 will pass its what happens next , May exists because of and solely for Brexit,   The decline of public services , inflation and squeeze on living standards can be linked to Brexit.  50 billion on exit fees alone.  Why cant that be spent on the NHS,   Doctors and nurses being discouraged from coming because of the immigration rules, racism and low wages made worse by the weak pound.

 

If the public can be persuaded that Brexit is a big part of the problem then she is in real trouble,

 

Real trouble? From whom? Corbyn is pro Brexit and is whipping the party to that effect.

[Gooch]

Real trouble? From whom? Corbyn is pro Brexit and is whipping the party to that effect.

 

Exactly. All a shit Brexit will result in is the rhetoric ramping up against Europe even further whilst Labour/Corbyn will not have a leg to stand on. They are doomed and I don't see a way out.

[magicrat]

Real trouble? From whom? Corbyn is pro Brexit and is whipping the party to that effect.

 

So we accept the Tories run the show forever. Won't happen.

If Labour wont fill the void in opposing them others will. Starting already with Blair and Major piping up . 

Corbyn has tactically decided to waive through the A50 bill judging it was a fight not worth the effort, Labour strategy is supposedly about trying to soften the blow by maintaining access to the single market. If that fails then a disastrous hard Brexit will present the opportunity for Labour to pick up the pieces. Its a reactive not proactive strategy and one I am very critical of although wait long enough and stick around it could  well work but the damage done may be horrific. There will be plenty of opportunity to hammer the government as Brexit starts for real; We will get almost daily leaks on the negotiations and I think it will almost impossible for them to get a smooth transition. Much more likely we will quickly reach impasse on key issues and face crashing out, As that point people will start to get the downside to the whole fuckfest,  WTO rules and tariff barriers will be a nightmare for British business. No cosy bilateral trade agreements will magically appear to take us into a brave new world, A few encouraging words from Trump are meaningless. The US is not going to save our economy and the reality of that will start to percolate through to millions of people

 

In the short term the Tories achllles heel is the NHS and community care,  If it is shown Brexit is being prioritised over saving lives and caring for the elderly then it will gain traction and change the narrative. Public opinion is still split pretty much down the middle on Brexit despite the massive effort by the Tories to stiffle further discussion and brand remainers as seeking to thwart the will of the people, 

There is still a hell of a lot to play for . I hope Labour steps up and leads from the front

[Skidfingers McGonical]

They aren't not fighting article 50 because it's not a fight worth fighting. They are respecting a democratic vote.

 

Stop peddling this bullshit.

[Hades]

The mistake is thinking you can fight violence with peace.

[Jose Jones]

The mistake is thinking you can fight violence with peace.

Gandhi over here.

[magicrat]

They aren't not fighting article 50 because it's not a fight worth fighting. They are respecting a democratic vote.

 

Stop peddling this bullshit.

 

Labour peers where whipped into voting down the amendment to instruct the Government to maintain membership of the single market last night .Was that part of the democratic vote or just bullshit or do you believe May when she said people knew what they voted for?

The Tories are showing no respect for nearly half the electorate that voted against this . The bullshit is pretending Labour are somehow on the right side of the argument .  

[VladimirIlyich]

Labour peers where whipped into voting down the amendment to instruct the Government to maintain membership of the single market last night .Was that part of the democratic vote or just bullshit or do you believe May when she said people knew what they voted for?

The Tories are showing no respect for nearly half the electorate that voted against this . The bullshit is pretending Labour are somehow on the right side of the argument .

What's the answer,in your opinion?

[magicrat]

What's the answer,in your opinion?

 

First and foremost for Labour do their job as an opposition and hold the government to account over the lies and bullshit they are putting out over Brexit. After 8 months of May saying she is going to get a good deal for Brittain  Davies admits today we might not be able to agree a deal.Its fucking diabolical and we are heading for a rail crash out of the EU. Not leaving it to the likes of Major, Blair and Hesseltine to call them out. Meekly rubber stamping the Bill , not even allowing MP's and Peers a free vote will backfire imo, 

Anyway there is no quick solution just sticking the boot in at every opportunity and get the message across that the Tories are peddling lies over Brexit and neglecting essential services.

The second thing that should happen is that Labour should embrace PR and when the day finally dawns that the Tories are dumped get the electoral system changed so we never have to have this extremism shoved down our throats again,

[dennis tooth]

If only he was in the bilderberg group...

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Labour peers were whipped into voting down the amendment to instruct the Government to maintain membership of the single market last night .Was that part of the democratic vote or just bullshit or do you believe May when she said people knew what they voted for?

The Tories are showing no respect for nearly half the electorate that voted against this . The bullshit is pretending Labour are somehow on the right side of the argument .  

Fucking nuts that.

 

In the House of Commons, Labour tabled an Amendment which would "Establish a number of key principles the Government must seek to negotiate during the process, including protecting workers’ rights, securing full tariff and impediment free access to the Single Market."

 

In the House of Lords, they were whipped to oppose this one.

“( ) Before a notification can be given under subsection (1), the Prime Minister must give an undertaking to negotiate under the process set out in Article 50 on the basis of the United Kingdom retaining membership of the European Single Market.”

 

If anyone's nerd enough to read the debate (I'm not) it's here.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2017-02-27/debates/E22CE0EF-FD2B-461D-97B8-871A1FCF87CE/EuropeanUnion(NotificationOfWithdrawal)Bill

 

 

 

Maybe I'm thick, but that seems a bit inconsistent to me, to say the least.

[magicrat]

 

 

Maybe I'm thick, but that seems a bit inconsistent to me, to say the least.

 

You're not the only once struggling to understand the rationale behind their strategy, How can being seen to collude with the Tories be in any way beneficial to their standing . May well be impossible to halt A50 but not putting down any markers is bonkers, 

[clangers]

You're not the only once struggling to understand the rationale behind their strategy, How can being seen to collude with the Tories be in any way beneficial to their standing . May well be impossible to halt A50 but not putting down any markers is bonkers, 

Labour are torn because 30% voted 'Leave' but they are spread across 70% of Labour's constituencies. The majority of the Labour movement as a whole (parliamentary party, unions, members and voters) supported remain. Remain lost so Labour are effectively on the wrong side of the argument with a significant faction on the other side.

 

It's the opposite for the Tories, the majority of the parliamentary party supported remain but the members, party activists and their core voters overwhelming supported leave.It's much easier for the Tories to keep the faction of the party which supported remain under control because they're on the wrong side of the argument (as perceived by the majority of Tories) and lost.

 

It's a difficult situation for Corbyn, he's sympathetic to elements of the leave argument and has tried to move the party to support Brexit whilst attempting the address the needs of both factions. The alternative position is to line up with the Lib Dems and support the 48% who voted to remain. Either path is fraught with difficulties but given that Brexit is happening he's chosen to try to strategically position Labour on the winning side. He's taken the view that siding with the remain camp now is the road to oblivion for Labour (it might be oblivion for years to come as Brexit may have redefined the voting landscape anyway).

 

Having said that he's not played a poor hand well.

 

Best off focusing on post Article 50, the negotiations and the outcome of all this.

[skend04]

Labour are torn because 30% voted 'Leave' but they are spread across 70% of Labour's constituencies. The majority of the Labour movement as a whole (parliamentary party, unions, members and voters) supported remain. Remain lost so Labour are effectively on the wrong side of the argument with a significant faction on the other side.

 

It's the opposite for the Tories, the majority of the parliamentary party supported remain but the members, party activists and their core voters overwhelming supported leave.It's much easier for the Tories to keep the faction of the party which supported remain under control because they're on the wrong side of the argument (as perceived by the majority of Tories) and lost.

 

It's a difficult situation for Corbyn, he's sympathetic to elements of the leave argument and has tried to move the party to support Brexit whilst attempting the address the needs of both factions. The alternative position is to line up with the Lib Dems and support the 48% who voted to remain. Either path is fraught with difficulties but given that Brexit is happening he's chosen to try to strategically position Labour on the winning side. He's taken the view that siding with the remain camp now is the road to oblivion for Labour (it might be oblivion for years to come as Brexit may have redefined the voting landscape anyway).

 

Having said that he's not played a poor hand well.

 

Best off focusing on post Article 50, the negotiations and the outcome of all this.

Working class Tories and Kippers banding together in those Labour constituencies tipped the scales to leave. Yes, there were Labour voters in there too but if the Tories take back the support that went to ukip then Labour will lose seats regardless. There are more Tories that switched to ukip than Labour. Corbyn sitting on his hands won't help with that.

[magicrat]

Labour are torn because 30% voted 'Leave' but they are spread across 70% of Labour's constituencies. The majority of the Labour movement as a whole (parliamentary party, unions, members and voters) supported remain. Remain lost so Labour are effectively on the wrong side of the argument with a significant faction on the other side.

 

It's the opposite for the Tories, the majority of the parliamentary party supported remain but the members, party activists and their core voters overwhelming supported leave.It's much easier for the Tories to keep the faction of the party which supported remain under control because they're on the wrong side of the argument (as perceived by the majority of Tories) and lost.

 

It's a difficult situation for Corbyn, he's sympathetic to elements of the leave argument and has tried to move the party to support Brexit whilst attempting the address the needs of both factions. The alternative position is to line up with the Lib Dems and support the 48% who voted to remain. Either path is fraught with difficulties but given that Brexit is happening he's chosen to try to strategically position Labour on the winning side. He's taken the view that siding with the remain camp now is the road to oblivion for Labour (it might be oblivion for years to come as Brexit may have redefined the voting landscape anyway).

 

Having said that he's not played a poor hand well.

 

Best off focusing on post Article 50, the negotiations and the outcome of all this.

 

That de facto is where he now is. Personally I think he should have aligned with the Lib Dems and called for second vote on the single market,

He could have made the case and challenged the Tories on this will of the people bollocks they have spouted. We are now in a position that any politician that crticises Brexit is labelled an enemy of the people, Labour have allowed that to happen to a large extent. 

Going forward I have zero confidence Labour will hold the Tories to account on the outcome, Much more likely is we hit an impasse and crash out rendering any negotiated settlement irrelevant, Davies and  Fox are already laying the groundwork for that in recent statements saying it might not be possible to reach agreement, If that happens they will blame the EU and the country will suffer massive disruption with the poor and public services hammered like never before.  Jacob Rees Mogg on the other hand will still have his family mansion and his 150 million pound fortune ( probably invested in foreign securities) and he will have his country back the congenital xenophobic gobshite,

[Section_31]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/01/corbyn-staying-not-good-enough

 

Owen Jones 

 

 

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Wednesday 1 March 2017 15.45 GMT First published on Wednesday 1 March 201714.08 GMT

There is no pussyfooting around Labour’s Copeland rout. Opposition parties simply do not lose byelections to governing parties. Yes, Labour’s support has been in decline in the constituency since 1997; and we know that working-class disillusionment kicked in under New Labour. But wasn’t the whole point of the Jeremy Corbyn project to reverse that trend, not have a further dramatic drop of support just two years after the last general election? And while Labour activists in Stoke should beam with pride for routing Ukip, there, too, there was a swing to the Tories.

 Don’t blame Corbyn for the sins of Blair, Brown and New Labour

Ken Loach

 

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The polling for Labour is catastrophic. Veteran pollster John Curtice says the swing to the Tories in Copeland is even more dramatic than national opinion surveys suggest. Yes, polls can be wrong: 2015 and 1992 represent the two big polling disasters of our time. Yet in both cases, the disaster was overestimating Labour’s lead. If the current polling is wrong in any meaningful way, precedent suggests the real picture is even worse for Labour.

And if Labour loses the next election a rightwing Tory government, infused with an increasingly xenophobic and authoritarian brand of populism, will have a whopping, unassailable majority. Corbyn will certainly resign. The left will be blamed for breaking the Labour party. Several leftwing MPs will lose their seats. The remaining MPs will certainly not nominate any candidate on the left. The party will hurtle off to the right.

Those who fear the fall of Corbyn will open the door to New Labour-style politics should realise that a calamitous election defeat is the way to guarantee it.

Those currently turning away from Labour are not doing so because the party wants to invest in the economy rather than cut, or introduce a genuine living wage, or return public services and utilities into the hands of the British people, or increase workers’ rights. All of these policies are supported by millions.

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But a terrible defeat for Labour will be spun as a rejection of the policies Corbyn supporters rightly champion. They will be buried in the rubble. Every time anyone proposes these ideas, the response will be: “But Labour supported those under Corbyn, didn’t it, and it ended in disaster.” Britain in the aftermath of a calamitous Labour defeat will be intoxicated with Tory triumphalism, and will be an oppressive place for any vaguely progressive views.

Political debate in Britain – and much of the wider western world – is toxic and angry. That includes within Labour and the wider left. The party’s warring factions now refuse to accept that differing opinions are expressed in good faith – there have to be ulterior motives, ranging from careerism to self-aggrandisement to “virtue signalling”. When, during the last Labour leadership election, I posedcritical questions for Corbyn supporters, one senior leftwing figure told me I had resigned from the left. Others on the left claim media brainwashing is chiefly responsible for Tory victories.

The stories you need to read, in one handy email

 

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On the other hand, the militant anti-Corbynistas show little understanding as to why they lost in the first place. They also believe media brainwashing gifted Corbyn the leadership, albeit from leftwing newspaper columnists. Labour’s electoral system, which helped grant Corbyn victory, was designed under pressure from the party’s right. They believed it would dilute the influence of the unions, encouraging more representative members of the electorate to join and support candidates closer to the “centre ground”. Corbyn didn’t win in 2015; his opponents lost. They had no compelling or coherent alternative, and couldn’t inspire members of their own party – let alone the wider public – to vote for them. They left a vacuum, and it was filled.

That remains the case, as the more perceptive among their ranks recognise. The less perceptive have become embittered nihilists, defined almost exclusively by hostility to the left. In fact, Corbyn’s victory was just another example of the wildly differing manifestations of the discontent sweeping the western world – from Trump to Sanders, from the Scottish independence movement to the French Front National, from Spain’s Podemos to Austria’s far-right.

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Corbyn is a man of principle who has repeatedly been on the right side of history. He was arrested for campaigning against apartheid when Margaret Thatcher was denouncing the ANC as terrorists; he supported LGBT rights when it was “loony left” to do so; he campaigned against Saddam Hussein when our government armed the murderous despot; he later opposed the Iraq war. On the big issues of the day – such as public investment in our economy, tax justice, workers’ rights, the housing crisis, the NHS – he is absolutely right.

Corbyn is not responsible for all of Labour’s ills – far from it. The party is beset by a multitude of structural problems: the crisis of social democratic and centre-left parties across the western world; the post-Brexit division in its electoral coalition between working-class voters in small towns and university-educated voters in big cities; a widening generational divide in voting; and the failure of his predecessors to defend Labour’s record on spending, which continues to undermine the case for investment. These are underlying problems predating Corbyn.

Yet the leadership has not only failed to address them, but actually made many of them worse. Of course it’s correct, as Corbyn’s supporters often point out, that Britain’s press is owned by an aggressively rightwing cabal who demonise anyone who even vaguely challenges the status quo. But there needs to be a sophisticated strategy to deal with such entrenched opposition; it has been sorely lacking.

And his supporters are right to say that last year’s shambolic coup attempt damaged the party: it was both outrageous and the mark of a farcical absence of political strategy to cripple the opposition at a time of national crisis immediately after the Brexit vote. It undoubtedly has impacted on Labour’s polling. It was delusional to imagine Owen Smith would prove more electable, given his gaffe-ridden commitment to overturning the EU referendum and even refusing to rule out membership of the euro and Schengen. Elements of the parliamentary Labour party undermined Corbyn from the very beginning. But Labour has not once been ahead in the average of polls (which is what counts) since the last general election. Under Miliband, Labour was significantly ahead for long periods through the last parliament, but that was not enough to secure victory. For Labour to have a polling deficit between elections is a huge pointer to defeat. Since the coup failure, Corbyn’s internal critics have remained largely silent, yet Labour’s polling has continued to slide.

Corbyn did not stand in the first leadership election to win. He stood to put the left’s policies on the agenda, serve as a brake on the other candidates marching off to the right and to build up a grassroots movement. Momentum was not intended to be the praetorian guard of the leader, but rather the re-emergence of an organised left. On the day of the first televised hustings, Corbyn told me he thought getting 25% of the vote would be a success.

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When it was clear he was going to win, many felt anxious. Winning the leadership, after all, had not been the point of the exercise. There were, to say the least, question marks over Corbyn’s ability to take on such a demanding position, partly because of the lack of preparation for a leftwing leadership, and the firestorm that would come. It was, though, critical to do everything possible to try to make a deeply unexpected victory work and to advance the cause of the left.

I believed Corbyn could defy the odds against him by reaching out to those who were neither in poverty or well-off; having a sophisticated media strategy; focusing on issues that mattered to average voters, including older Britons and the self-employed; having a narrative on immigration that didn’t mean indulging xenophobia; redefining patriotism in a way that celebrated great achievements such as the NHS and our ancestors winning rights and freedoms. Above all else, making sure that the leadership had a good first impression – because a bad first impression is extremely hard to shift.

Many others who wanted to make this unexpected victory work offered helpful advice. Yet it just wasn’t listened to, it certainly wasn’t implemented, and Corbyn’s first impression was disastrous. A coherent strategy, a coherent vision and a clear message never emerged. Various terrible missteps played directly into the Tory narrative. If you don’t define yourself, you will be defined by your opponents, and my goodness this applies to Corbyn’s leadership. Astonishingly, the polling suggests Corbyn even trails Theresa May when it comes to the public knowing what they stand for. It is soul-destroying to watch great ideals and policies being dragged down, not by their own merits, but through a lack of strategy and basic competence.

 Enough navel-gazing. It’s time Labour got back to work

Zoe Williams

 

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So what now? Corbyn is a decent, honourable and principled man. He has to make a decision, and so do his parliamentary opponents. Whatever happens with the leadership, he needs to set out a clear and coherent strategy about how exactly Labour can overcome its existential crisis. Since the byelection rout, he has made it clear he isn’t going anywhere without even offering the vaguest outlines about how to turn it around. That isn’t good enough: again, consider the stakes. Both he and his team have to think hard. If Corbyn decides he is unable to confront the multiple existential crises enveloping Labour, then an agreement should be struck where he can stand down in exchange for the guarantee of an MP from the new generation on the ballot paper who is committed to the policies that inspired Corbyn’s supporters in the first place. It is up to both Corbyn and the parliamentary Labour party. They should both be aware that history is a savage judge.

I understand the dilemma torturing so many who supported Corbyn. Lifelong commitment to a good and noble cause; fear that if Corbyn falls the cause will fall with him; yet fear that his project is failing badly and risks destroying the cause in any case. Not only the future of Labour but the future of this country depends on what the party decides. Either we become a country riddled with hatred and fear, a playground for billionaires, that slashes support for the working poor and disabled people, that runs down and flogs off the services we depend on; or a country run in the interests of the real wealth creators, working people.