Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Numero Veinticinco]

Len making threads over the ‘persecuted’ Corbyn. 

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Corbyn himself said at the time that the wreaths were laid on the graves of those killed in 1985 and also on the graves of individuals killed in Paris in 1991, presumably meaning the Black September organiser who was killed in Paris in 1992 and/or the Black September organiser who was killed in Tunis in 1991. The other problem with the "he only laid a wreath for those killed in 1985" argument is that photographs show him both near the 1985 memorial and also near the graves of the PLO/Black September ringleaders (the photos of him holding a wreath, in fact).

 

I was sure we went over this at tedious length a few years ago. My personal impression is that he probably only had half a clue about who he was laying wreaths to (the fact he referred to non-existent assassinations in Paris in 1991 pretty much backs this up), but whether he actually laid a wreath to people who castrated and murdered Jews, or just happened to be in the same graveyard when someone else did... well, it's not going to inspire much confidence in Jewish people either way.

 

Even on the kindest interpretation, it displays a level of poor judgement which seems to have affected him and his allies frequently over the years, most recently Diane Abbott speaking the other day at an online event alongside apologists for Uyghur persecution.

Yeah I think I'll continue to believe a life-long equal rights campaigner over the ruler of an apartheid state. 

 

 

 

[Strontium]

8 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Reminder though how good a film Munich is. I think its pretty under-rated actually. 

 

It does a decent job of depicting the moral ambiguity of the targeted assassinations. It's a good film, but I think it would have been a better film if it included the occasion when the Israelis mistakenly killed a perfectly innocent Moroccan guy in Norway.

[Bjornebye]

8 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

It does a decent job of depicting the moral ambiguity of the targeted assassinations. It's a good film, but I think it would have been a better film if it included the occasion when the Israelis mistakenly killed a perfectly innocent Moroccan guy in Norway.

Yeah imagine the outrage though. The scene with the piano girl is superb. You're right though. 

[Gnasher]

Corbyn speaks out

 

 

 

[Bjornebye]

 

 

 

[Section_31]

32 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

 

 

 

 

The last bit is an interesting point. The celebrity hounders of Corbyn, Oberman and Riley, I genuinely don't recall them being vocal about anything regarding antisemitism or the holocaust except in the context of Corbyn and 'corbynisters'. Do they? Are they campaigners, advocates, charity donors? I genuinely don't know.

[Rico1304]

 

[Bjornebye]

5 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

The last bit is an interesting point. The celebrity hounders of Corbyn, Oberman and Riley, I genuinely don't recall them being vocal about anything regarding antisemitism or the holocaust except in the context of Corbyn and 'corbynisters'. Do they? Are they campaigners, advocates, charity donors? I genuinely don't know.

It just seems to me that they've got a bit of attention of being professional Corbyn bashers so now identify as that rather than being a calculator with tits or an extra on eastenders thsee days. The stunt from Riley with the t-shirt was fucking disgusting. 

 

She also managed to say something probably far more anti-semitic than Corbyn has ever said but she doesn't like it being shared on twitter

 

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

14 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

The last bit is an interesting point. The celebrity hounders of Corbyn, Oberman and Riley, I genuinely don't recall them being vocal about anything regarding antisemitism or the holocaust except in the context of Corbyn and 'corbynisters'. Do they? Are they campaigners, advocates, charity donors? I genuinely don't know.

Another quirk is their is no charge of antisemitism against Corbyn by anyone in the MSM before he became leader and hes been an mp a long time. 

 

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

Reminder though how good a film Munich is. I think its pretty under-rated actually. 

It's a great film. The name escapes me at the moment, but there's also a very good documentary about it too. Done by the bloke who directed the Whitney Houston documentary. 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

It's a great film. The name escapes me at the moment, but there's also a very good documentary about it too. Done by the bloke who directed the Whitney Houston documentary. 

Is it just about the Olympics attack or the Mossad retaliation as well? I watched a good one on the Munich Olympics attack. Harrowing. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

26 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Is it just about the Olympics attack or the Mossad retaliation as well? I watched a good one on the Munich Olympics attack. Harrowing. 

If my memory serves me right it was mainly on the attacks. The stuff they did to one of the Israeli weightlifters was horrendous. 

[Bjornebye]

7 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

If my memory serves me right it was mainly on the attacks. The stuff they did to one of the Israeli weightlifters was horrendous. 

Yep. Horrible 

[sir roger]

I'm glad I am out of the party now.

 

I am annoyed with Corbyn as he threw away the best chance of getting a proper left-leaning party and the hopes of hundreds of thousands of people  by being too meek and mild and not wanting to confront anybody or make any difficult decisions.

 

I am annoyed with Starmer as he has thrown away a fantastic chance  to unite the party , has got himself into an impossible position appeasing people who are political opponents of the party, and appears to make every decision on a rushed, ad hoc basis depending on what his pr people tell him might win an election in 4 years time.

[Brownie]

1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

It just seems to me that they've got a bit of attention of being professional Corbyn bashers so now identify as that rather than being a calculator with tits or an extra on eastenders thsee days. The stunt from Riley with the t-shirt was fucking disgusting. 

 

She also managed to say something probably far more anti-semitic than Corbyn has ever said but she doesn't like it being shared on twitter

 

 

 

 

Fucking hell I’ve never seen that before! The fucking nerve on that cunt!

[Duff Man]

Not sure where the idea that Corbyn was only reinstated thanks to a biased NEC comes from. The 5 person disciplinary committee was picked by staffers working for Evans, and voted unanimously in favour of reinstatement.

[Numero Veinticinco]

29 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Not sure where the idea that Corbyn was only reinstated thanks to a biased NEC comes from. The 5 person disciplinary committee was picked by staffers working for Evans, and voted unanimously in favour of reinstatement.

Yeah, I think it’s bullshit too. I think it was more likely that he was reinstated because he didn’t break the rules. I say that without actually knowing the details of the rules. It does seem far more sensible than ‘he was bang guilty but there was a conspiracy to reinstate him’. 
 

Honestly, I’ve not really made my mind up on Starmer withdrawing the whip. I think he has shown excellent leadership since the report came out. He reacted fairly, strongly, and with purpose to the report. The report findings were pretty grim, and those not acknowledging or criticising Labour under Corbyn for their and his failings are skewed. However, I’m undecided on this. Part of me thinks that the findings of the report show something serious enough to say Corbyn and his office fucked up badly enough, coupled with his appalling response to that report- especially saying he wasn’t part of the problem and not accepting findings from the report - to have him booted on general principle (though, I fully accept general principle and Labour rules aren’t the same thing). Then another part of me says... well, it did just go through a fuckin’ investigation that reinstated him.
 

It’s clear he wants him out of the way. I can’t argue with that, because he is an incredibly divisive figure, not because of who he is but because he has become some sort of symbol to some. I guess (again) that he has made the decision that temporary tooth pulling pain is better than long term toothache. How well that works out remains to be seen. It’s ballsy as fuck, I’ll give him that. Not sure if it’s fair or smart or anything else. 

[Duff Man]

I think the initial suspension was incredibly stupid, given the legal advice apparently provided to the NEC disciplinary committee was "there weren't really grounds to suspend him, and if it went to court he'd have a pretty good case for having it overturned". If you're going to bin a former leader who's still very popular amongst the membership, you better have a cast-iron reason for doing so, and you should probably check that you do before you pull the trigger. It was a huge fuck-up, imo, but I reckon it was Evans' more than Starmer's.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 hours ago, Numero said:

I'm guessing (again) that Starmer was hoping they'd have booted him so he didn't have to take these measures. Thing is, I think the findings of that report are pretty damning and I suspect that it's as much about that as Corbyn's numerous fuck-ups in response to it. This is such a mess. Got some balls on him, though. Right or wrong, he hasn't hidden. 

 

So... bets on who goes? Abbott, McDonnell, RLB, Richard Burgon... erm... I guess a few others from the Campaign Group? 

I've read through the report once quickly, so I don't recall - does it explicitly say "the Leader* did/didn't do this".

 

(* "The leadership" is not the same as "the Leader".)

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

I've read through the report once quickly, so I don't recall - does it explicitly say "the Leader* did/didn't do this".

 

(* "The leadership" is not the same as "the Leader".)

It says the leader of the opposition (LOTO) in reference to his office. It also mentions him by name regarding political interference. For me, it’s about who is responsible for him, his office, and the party he leads.
 

If there’s debate on that, then that leads to other questions, like if he isn’t responsible for the leader of the opposition office, then is Trump responsible for the office of the president? If Corbyn isn’t responsible for not just the party, but his own office which includes him, then who is and is Boris Johnson responsible for his office and for the cabinet? 
 

BTW, the report wasn’t set up with the objective of looking just at Corbyn, but at the Labour Party. 

[cloggypop]

3 minutes ago, Numero said:

It also mentions him by name regarding political interference.

Link please.

 

 

No individuals are named as being responsible by the watchdog.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/29/key-findings-of-the-ehrc-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism

[AngryOfTuebrook]

2 minutes ago, Numero said:

 if he isn’t responsible for the leader of the opposition office, then is Trump responsible for the office of the president? 

False equivalence. 

 

Without any need to get into specifics, it's obvious that what applies in one political system doesn't necessarily apply in another. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

False equivalence. 

 

Without any need to get into specifics, it's obvious that what applies in one political system doesn't necessarily apply in another. 

You’ve cherrypicked one thing out of the rest. Good stuff. Are you trolling? Do want to respond to the entire post or are you just going to be dishonest? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

6 minutes ago, Numero said:

It says the leader of the opposition (LOTO) in reference to his office. It also mentions him by name regarding political interference. For me, it’s about who is responsible for him, his office, and the party he leads.
 

If there’s debate on that, then that leads to other questions, like if he isn’t responsible for the leader of the opposition office, then is Trump responsible for the office of the president? If Corbyn isn’t responsible for not just the party, but his own office which includes him, then who is and is Boris Johnson responsible for his office and for the cabinet? 
 

BTW, the report wasn’t set up with the objective of looking just at Corbyn, but at the Labour Party. 

Corbyn should carry the can for the failings of LOTO office, but other people were in charge of the complaints-handling bodies and the NEC. It's only fair to blame Corbyn for the stuff that was within his purview and nothing more.