Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[TheHowieLama]

At least he is still not divisive.

[Creator Supreme]

If Labour throw him out I for one would be happy to welcome to the Greens, Corbyn is as anti-Semitic as Jackie Mason! It's a load of old bollocks, a myth perpetuated by those who want the Palestinians in Israel to continue living under Apartheid rule, and equate any criticism of Israel as criticism of Judaism!

 

Easiest way around all this shit...fuck all religion off!

[Numero Veinticinco]

8 minutes ago, Creator Supreme said:

If Labour throw him out I for one would be happy to welcome to the Greens, Corbyn is as anti-Semitic as Jackie Mason! It's a load of old bollocks, a myth perpetuated by those who want the Palestinians in Israel to continue living under Apartheid rule, and equate any criticism of Israel as criticism of Judaism!

 

Easiest way around all this shit...fuck all religion off!

It’s nothing to do with religion. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

6 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

At least he is still not divisive.

This line is such horseshit.

 

If you get mugged walking down the street you wouldn't expect people to make sarky comments about you disturbing the peace. 

 

On the one side of this divide you keep alluding to you get people who would have liked the real Corbyn to be PM. On the other side you get people who are opposed to this grotesque anti-Semitic, terrorist-loving, economically-incompetent, extremist that the media fabricated.

[Numero Veinticinco]

39 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

This line is such horseshit.

 

If you get mugged walking down the street you wouldn't expect people to make sarky comments about you disturbing the peace. 

 

On the one side of this divide you keep alluding to you get people who would have liked the real Corbyn to be PM. On the other side you get people who are opposed to this grotesque anti-Semitic, terrorist-loving, economically-incompetent, extremist that the media fabricated.

I think you’re missing those who are smart enough to understand that the charges of antisemitism and terrorist-loving were silly and wise enough to not get their opinions mindlessly from rag headlines, but have a legitimate issue with his leadership, the strategic approach to winning elections, and the tactical approach to issues. I personally just get my opinions spoon-fed by the Daily Mail, but apparently they do exist. 
 

I actually don’t know how anyone can suggest he isn’t divisive. He’s probably the most divisive person since Blair. For every shite-swallowing, unthinking idiot you have a cult-like, ear-fingering acolyte. More importantly for every person who wanted him on the quite sensible grounds that he’s a nice man with solid principles who compares with Johnson like Jesus with Lucifer you have somebody who is a rational critic of how he approaches winning an election, and on many other issues. 
 

Either way, he’s incredibly divisive and it shouldn’t be framed as sensible people wanting the real Corbyn vs weirdo cult-like anti Corbyn weirdos. If anything, doing so illustrates how divisive he was. He still is it seems. 
 

As for removing the whip... well, that’s be an extremely harsh punishment for a many who has been in the Labour Party his entire life and his entire career. That said, the report following the Equality and Human Rights Commission full statutory investigation is coming in final form, and if it says that Corbyn is innocent of any wrongdoing supporters will use its credibility to say It told you so’ but if it recommends removing the whip then they’ll say - as they already are preemptively complaining - that it’s a load of shit. If it recommends these things, what it Starmer supposed to do? Will he be clearing the left out if he feels forced to go with their suggestions? 
 

I maintain it’s an absolute cunt of a position to be in and inherit - no matter who is at fault for it. 

 

[Creator Supreme]

1 hour ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

It’s nothing to do with religion. 

I wouldn't say that mate, surely religion is used as the most basic back up for these claims (it may not be fair on the religions in question, but that's how they're used). Surely if there was no religion there would be one less thing for people to fight over? (Although being human, I'm sure something else would replace it quick enough)

 

All I will say is 'Follow the gourd!'

[Bjornebye]

The anti-Semitic stuff (In my opinion) is a mix of him showing support for Palestine and also his promise of heavier taxes on the rich. As soon as he announced that the level of vitriol from certain quarters escalated dramatically. Its not anti-semitic to point that out, its an observation. Last year was a disgrace how he was slandered. How Rachel Riley got away with that t-shirt stunt is beyond me. 

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

If it recommends these things, what it Starmer supposed to do? Will he be clearing the left out if he feels forced to go with their suggestions?

 

Well if he turfs Corbyn out and then Corbyn joins or starts another party as a result of it, still with a lot of support across the country, he could be making the the worst decision of his career. Because with years still to go until the next election and enough people joining whatever party Corbyn ended up in, that party could actually be a genuine rival of Labour. If that happens I don't think there's any possible way that Labour get enough votes to win an election.

 

That's me trying to look at it rationally, if it actually happened I think it'd be fucking outrageous, and I'm sure a lot of others would as well.

[Bjornebye]

I don't think he should "turf" Corbyn out but I do thing Corbyns time is up i the party. So long as he is a part of it there will be continuous slander and deflections. 

[Jairzinho]

Withdrawing the whip from Corbyn would be an atrocious decision and electoral suicide from Labour.

 

It would also make an absolute mockery of the "time for unity" bullshit.

[Red Phoenix]

8 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

I don't think he should "turf" Corbyn out but I do thing Corbyns time is up i the party. So long as he is a part of it there will be continuous slander and deflections. 

 

Well if the EHRC report suggests he should be thrown out it'll probably prove their bias and it's then left to Starmer. Does he still think unity is important? Or does he simply remove him as fast as he did RLB from the cabinet? Making him leave (turfing!) could destroy Labour as a political force capable of winning an election for a long time to come if it turns out badly for him.

 

Personally I can't wait for the report, it could at least make things a lot clearer as to how things are going to turn out for Labour as a party, and finally bring an end to years of bullshit that we've had to endure.

[aRdja]

2 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Withdrawing the whip from Corbyn would be an atrocious decision and electoral suicide from Labour.

 

It would also make an absolute mockery of the "time for unity" bullshit.

I think this is showing us that Starmer is serious about winning the next election. I think there’s nothing to be gained politically from fighting for Palestinian causes right this minute. Concede to all their demands, that way there will be less for the right to smear Labour in the lead-up to the next election... once you’re in power then it’s a different story. I was actually disappointed that he didn’t sack Steve Reed for tweeting one of the grossest anti-semitic comments I’ve ever seen. Without a shadow of doubt, that’s been stored and will be used to attack Starmer when it counts later.

[Red Phoenix]

8 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I think this is showing us that Starmer is serious about winning the next election.

 

If he removes the whip it might not matter what Starmer thinks from that point, Labour having a chance of winning the next election could then be down to what Corbyn decides to do. He could play it nice (which is a real possibility) and say that he'll carry on as an independent, tell people within Labour not to desert the party and that we should focus on getting the Tories out.

 

Or he could decide he's had enough of the bullshit, in which case he can then direct his support across the country to wherever he goes next if he joins another party. Knowing how fucking boring UK politics turns out I'll not be surprised if he does the former.

[Jairzinho]

7 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I think this is showing us that Starmer is serious about winning the next election. I think there’s nothing to be gained politically from fighting for Palestinian causes right this minute. Concede to all their demands, that way there will be less for the right to smear Labour in the lead-up to the next election... once you’re in power then it’s a different story. I was actually disappointed that he didn’t sack Steve Reed for tweeting one of the grossest anti-semitic comments I’ve ever seen. Without a shadow of doubt, that’s been stored and will be used to attack Starmer when it counts later.

I just worry that too many people will leave the party. It looks shit symbolically.

 

He is in a tough spot.

[Jairzinho]

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

If he removes the whip it might not matter what Starmer thinks from that point, Labour having a chance of winning the next election could then be down to what Corbyn decides to do. He could play it nice (which is a real possibility) and say that he'll carry on as an independent, tell people within Labour not to desert the party and that we should focus on getting the Tories out.

 

Or he could decide he's had enough of the bullshit, in which case he can then direct his support across the country to wherever he goes next if he joins another party. Knowing how fucking boring UK politics turns out he'll maybe do the former.

Couldn't see him doing the latter.

[Red Phoenix]

5 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Couldn't see him doing the latter.

 

I'm not sure if I can now the more I think of it, in that sense it's something he shares with Sanders I suppose, that the party can do almost anything to him but he'll still see the main thing as focusing on getting the current idiots out. It's maybe the best idea but hopefully we'll see a new party at some point because this is getting really stupid now if these rumours are true.

[aRdja]

5 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

If he removes the whip it might not matter what Starmer thinks from that point, Labour having a chance of winning the next election could then be down to what Corbyn decides to do. He could play it nice (which is a real possibility) and say that he'll carry on as an independent, tell people within Labour not to desert the party and that we should focus on getting the Tories out.

 

Or he could decide he's had enough of the bullshit, in which case he can then direct his support across the country to wherever he goes next if he joins another party. Knowing how fucking boring UK politics turns out I'll not be surprised if he does the former.

 

3 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I just worry that too many people will leave the party. It looks shit symbolically.

 

He is in a tough spot.

This is still early days, you can try win the left back closer to the election with progressive policies... when it comes down to it, left wing voters will vote for Labour IMO. What’s important right this minute I reckon is to ensure that he’s squeaky clean...

[sir roger]

3 minutes ago, aRdja said:

 

This is still early days, you can try win the left back closer to the election with progressive policies... when it comes down to it, left wing voters will vote for Labour IMO. What’s important right this minute I reckon is to ensure that he’s squeaky clean...

I wont be voting for Labour for the first time in my life if Corbyn gets the whip withdrawn.

[skend04]

3 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I wont be voting for Labour for the first time in my life if Corbyn gets the whip withdrawn.

I support Corbyn FC not Labour FC...

[Numero Veinticinco]

38 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Withdrawing the whip from Corbyn would be an atrocious decision and electoral suicide from Labour.

 

It would also make an absolute mockery of the "time for unity" bullshit.

By following through in the recommendations of the EHRC report? I dunno, I think it's fucking horrible to be in that position. If RLB had won the Leadership election, she'd be the one having to deal with this and I'd be saying the same thing - it'd be horrible, but I think she'd have carried on the same approach as Corbyn which would have seen more allegations and actually held up as proof of antisemitism. You know, 'independent report says... but they ignore it' schtick. 

 

Unity isn't about one person, so I definitely disagree on it making a mockery of that. He said he was going to deal with the antisemitism issue and it looks like he has chosen the nuclear option. Time will tell how that goes. I'm undecided on electoral suicide. It's actually going to be interesting to see what the report says and how the Party reacts. RP above seems to think Corbyn stepping away from the Labour Party will be some deciding factor in an election. I think people overstate Corbyn's popularity. I'd also lose a lot of respect for the man - and whilst I have made clear my issues, I've also made clear I think he's a good man - if he acted in a way that diluted the possibility of beating the Tories in the coming elections. 

 

I think the report, as stated by Red Phoenix already, will be seen as 'if it suggests x it's proof of their bias'. Well, it might be. It might be proof of bias to prejudge findings. It's all prejudged and partisan based rather than rational and fact based at the moment. I'll wait to see what the report says. I think anything short of secret videos of Corbyn goose stepping up and down Parliament street wearing his finest Hugo Boss attire (read the previous hyperbole as 'proof of overt antisemitism') will be dismissed by his supporters and anything as little as passing on a slice of Challah will be trumped up by his detractors. Some will abandon the party no matter what the reasoning or how valid it is because they're so deeply wrapped up in Corbyn rather than beating the Tories (as is their right, of course) that they'd follow him whatever. Likewise, no matter how declarative it would be in clearing him, some would just trumpet the same old lines because it's about sticking it to Corbyn. All equally stupid in my view. 

 

Tories are laughing their cocks off whilst the left wing are all measuring theirs. Good times. 

 

EDIT: And look, maybe it's just time for a split. The hard left and the left might need to split from the soft left and centre left. I would expect the hard left and the left would then start taking chunks out of each other in the Corbyn party that RP describes. Everyone would be comrades for a little while, but then ultra lefties would start talking about the right wingers like Corbyn and Galloway. Either way, they'd be about as electable as UKIP or that bunch of Ummuna dickheads who thought they could break away from Corbyn's Labour and not end up losing their seats and working for some Tory hedge fund or something. Tell you what though, it'd be interesting to hear the 'he's not divisive' argument if he literally divides the Labour Party. Either way, I for one welcome our Tory overlords who will be able to literally do whatever they want to workers, to our health service, and to our welfare system. Hope it's worth it. 

 

EDIT: I bet any party started by Corbyn would end up being overrun by the likes of the BLMUK types who are less interested in Black Lives Mattering and more interested in abolishing the police and closing all prisons. It'd quickly become a haven for well intentioned transactivists banging on about female penii and pseudo anarchists who want to dismantle the system one radio rentals window and one stolen Samsung VCR at a time. Note, this slur may anachronistic. 

[sir roger]

8 minutes ago, skend04 said:

I support Corbyn FC not Labour FC...

Why exactly would I support a party led by a person I dont like or trust. Good on him , he conned the likes of me into supporting him , but I dont have keep pretending I wasnt conned.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, sir roger said:

Why exactly would I support a party led by a person you dont like or trust. Good on him , he conned the likes of me into supporting him , but I dont have keep pretending I wasnt conned.

Rog. I say this with love and respect, but you really don't need to put a space before a comma. It's 2020 my love. Please, it's a vote-loser. I beg you. It's what the Tories want. 

[Duff Man]

Given its scope, the EHRC report most likely won't even reference individuals, let alone make a recommendation as specific as removing the whip from an MP.

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

By following through in the recommendations of the EHRC report? I dunno, I think it's fucking horrible to be in that position. If RLB had won the Leadership election, she'd be the one having to deal with this and I'd be saying the same thing - it'd be horrible, but I think she'd have carried on the same approach as Corbyn which would have seen more allegations and actually held up as proof of antisemitism. You know, 'independent report says... but they ignore it' schtick. 

 

Unity isn't about one person, so I definitely disagree on it making a mockery of that. He said he was going to deal with the antisemitism issue and it looks like he has chosen the nuclear option. Time will tell how that goes. I'm undecided on electoral suicide. It's actually going to be interesting to see what the report says and how the Party reacts. RP above seems to think Corbyn stepping away from the Labour Party will be some deciding factor in an election. I think people overstate Corbyn's popularity. I'd also lose a lot of respect for the man - and whilst I have made clear my issues, I've also made clear I think he's a good man - if he acted in a way that diluted the possibility of beating the Tories in the coming elections. 

 

I think the report, as stated by Red Phoenix already, will be seen as 'if it suggests x it's proof of their bias'. Well, it might be. It might be proof of bias to prejudge findings. It's all prejudged and partisan based rather than rational and fact based at the moment. I'll wait to see what the report says. I think anything short of secret videos of Corbyn goose stepping up and down Parliament street wearing his finest Hugo Boss attire (read the previous hyperbole as 'proof of overt antisemitism') will be dismissed by his supporters and anything as little as passing on a slice of Challah will be trumped up by his detractors. Some will abandon the party no matter what the reasoning or how valid it is because they're so deeply wrapped up in Corbyn rather than beating the Tories (as is their right, of course) that they'd follow him whatever. Likewise, no matter how declarative it would be in clearing him, some would just trumpet the same old lines because it's about sticking it to Corbyn. All equally stupid in my view. 

 

Tories are laughing their cocks off whilst the left wing are all measuring theirs. Good times. 

 

EDIT: And look, maybe it's just time for a split. The hard left and the left might need to split from the soft left and centre left. I would expect the hard left and the left would then start taking chunks out of each other in the Corbyn party that RP describes. Everyone would be comrades for a little while, but then ultra lefties would start talking about the right wingers like Corbyn and Galloway. Either way, they'd be about as electable as UKIP or that bunch of Ummuna dickheads who thought they could break away from Corbyn's Labour and not end up losing their seats and working for some Tory hedge fund or something. Tell you what though, it'd be interesting to hear the 'he's not divisive' argument if he literally divides the Labour Party. Either way, I welcome our Tory overlords who will be able to literally do whatever they want to workers, to our health service, and to our welfare system. Hope it's worth it. 

 

But sadly, for many people it is about one person. Corbyn symbolises a great deal for a great many people on the left. He was the leader. He was the hope. Booting him out a few months after taking over won't look good.

 

Maybe politically it's fine. Maybe you can just tell the left to fuck off, and it'll win enough seats anyway. 

 

As always in politics it's about perception. Binning RLB and Corbyn will look like the party is heading in the direction that lots of people on the left predicted. It will look like desire of unity was a load of nonsense, and that it was actually just a desire to wrestle back control of the party.

 

I think a split is inevitable. I don't know how you can have a party with democratic socialists and people that have centre right economic views. 

 

I actually have no idea what the Labour Party is, and I think that's a view shared by quite a lot of the electorate.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Duff Man said:

Given its scope, the EHRC report most likely won't even reference individuals, let alone make a recommendation as specific as removing the whip from an MP.

Well, I had initially thought that but some of these Labour sources seem pretty insistent on this. I think it's a good idea to go mental and actually read the report first.