Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[sir roger]

2 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

 

When I got my current job I basically had to join the party. I deal with a couple of CLPs and everything I've seen and heard is horrendous. Most ordinary folk can't he arsed going and if they do, pretty quickly they're (very deliberately) put off from going again. 

 

As a result, the CLP inner workings are dominated by a tight nit group of people, most pro Corbyn still. The top of the party may again be dominated by 'Centrists', I dunno, but at grassroots level it won't be because centrist voters, by definition and by design, can't be doing with the aggro at meetings.

 

 

I'm sorry that isn't true , a few left wing CLPs may make a bit more noise and be reported by the msm in more detail, but the Councils and CLP's are still in the main run by people who have been there for years as is almost always borne out by votes for NEC positions.

 

[Bruce Spanner]

3 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I'm sorry that isn't true , a few left wing CLPs may make a bit more noise and be reported by the msm in more detail, but the Councils and CLP's are still in the main run by people who have been there for years as is almost always borne out by votes for NEC positions.

 

Maybe the case before momentum started to work hard on getting ‘their’ members in.

 

Landscape changed significantly post 2017.

[sir roger]

It did in quite a few localities but the fact that skwawkbox appear to be able to put each single clp up in a thread if they are sending motions about the Starmer / Corbyn rows suggest it is not that widespread.

[Numero Veinticinco]

5 hours ago, Gnasher said:

So much for unity then. I imagine those polls will be more clear cut and swerve dramatically against Corbyn in a few months time after even more members decide to leave.

So if he literally did nothing about Corbyn’s response to the report or let him back in the PLP, do you think unity would have been achieved? I honestly wonder why Corbyn, Miliband, Brown, or Blair didn’t just achieve unity. It’s as simple as just ignoring the issue and hoping people don’t complain, right? No. No, of course it isn’t.
 

If Starmer didn’t act, the unity of the party would be as much of an issue but from the other side. This is the problem with deep division, if it’s not one side it’s the other. You think the ‘right-wing’ (centre-left) would have let this go? That if he didn’t act after the report and Corbyn’s response, it would be dropped? Look at how they’ve acted the last five years. Come on, unity isn’t achieved through letting things go, it’s either by bringing people together (it has become increasingly clear that this ain’t happening) or by winning a power struggle.

What I think frustrates me about this is the implication that Starmer has caused this disunity rather that it being one of several big, rotten issues he inherited and has to sort out. I don’t think some people on here understand quite how poorly Corbyn’s response to the report was received, and if they do they don’t seem to care. Unity can only be achieved if both sides want it, need it, or are forced into it, or some combination of that. There will never be any unity in the Labour Party until this Corbyn issue is dealt with. Not antisemitism, not policy differences, but Corbyn. It - he - runs deep with people, both their blinkered support and their blinkered hatred. 

 

The only reason I give a single fuck about Labour, Starmer, Corbyn, or any of this banal nightmare is because they are the one party that can win power away from the Tories. Factional Labourites, by virtue of them all being self-destructive dickheads with the left hand wanting to cut off its right hand, and the right foot wanting to cut off the left foot, instead of coming out kicking and punching, deserve to split and crumble. These people aren’t defenders of labour - working people - in the UK. They’re defenders of themselves and their faction. 

 

People in Labour, especially on the left at the moment, and on the ‘right’ before, need to stop pretending they care more about winning elections, about policies, and about unity than they do about their own faction beating the other faction. Tell me how CLPs defying orders, voting for no confidence in the leader, and talking of support and solidarity with Corbyn is actually a service for the Labour Party unity with the goal of beating the Tories. This split isn’t about ideology, it’s about us vs them. If there can’t be any unity, cut out the necrotic flesh and let it regrow. If that’s Corbyn, so be it. I’d sooner the party split and have to rebuilt than be forced to watch them sabotage each other into more and more Tory governments. 

[Scooby Dudek]

Only one side of the party has shown that they care more about being in control of the party than being control of the country.

 

 

Starmer, should have let the investigation run it course. Once the NEC voted unanimously to let him back into the party, that should have been an end to it. It appears people then kicked off and he once again tried to appease these people and as most know whatever you do will never be enough.

 

No one knows what discussions took place between the leadership and Corbyn, but I am very surprised Corbyn is going to court either way. The evidence presented will tell us a lot of where people's priorities lie, on both sides.

[Sugar Ape]

With regards to membership figures I saw some quotes on the numbers the other day in this. 
 

 

 

 

[Jairzinho]

Everything seems to be going really well.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Scooby Dudek said:

Only one side of the party has shown that they care more about being in control of the party than being control of the country..

Seriously, this is what I’m talking about. It’s them, not us. Okay, we are going out of our way to undermine leadership on social media, funding legal action for the last leader, starting legal proceedings against the party, voting in Corbyn-supporting areas against Starmer and Evans, but we really are the ones who care more about the country than controlling the party, honest. They’re the baddies and we are the goodies.
 

I’m starting to despise large parts of the left. I love left wing policy - it’s in my very core - but many left wingers these days are prats. The group think, the tribalism over Corbyn as if he’s special in any way, the unfounded sense of superiority... they’re so often incorrigible dicks. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

11 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

With regards to membership figures I saw some quotes on the numbers the other day in this. 
 

 

 

 

Tempted to neg this for lack of tl;dr. 

[Sugar Ape]

5 minutes ago, Numero said:

Tempted to neg this for lack of tl;dr. 

There’s no such thing as a free lunch, son. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Lunch is on me, fuckers. Well, nibbles anyway. Okay, you can have a Smint. 

 

[Captain Howdy]

Said it before, the Labour Party is irrevocably split, more than it has ever been before. Allied with the situation in Scotland I honestly cannot see anything but eternal Conservative rule. When you think that they have been in power for 10 years, 10 years which have been completely dominated by financial hardship and the slaughtering of public services and STILL they walk elections, I just don’t see how they are ever going to be defeated I genuinely don’t.

[Numero Veinticinco]

49 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Said it before, the Labour Party is irrevocably split, more than it has ever been before. Allied with the situation in Scotland I honestly cannot see anything but eternal Conservative rule. When you think that they have been in power for 10 years, 10 years which have been completely dominated by financial hardship and the slaughtering of public services and STILL they walk elections, I just don’t see how they are ever going to be defeated I genuinely don’t.

Yeah, I think it’s coalition it’s bust. Might even be coalition then bust. 

[Scooby Dudek]

1 hour ago, Numero said:

Seriously, this is what I’m talking about. It’s them, not us. Okay, we are going out of our way to undermine leadership on social media, funding legal action for the last leader, starting legal proceedings against the party, voting in Corbyn-supporting areas against Starmer and Evans, but we really are the ones who care more about the country than controlling the party, honest. They’re the baddies and we are the goodies.
 

I’m starting to despise large parts of the left. I love left wing policy - it’s in my very core - but many left wingers these days are prats. The group think, the tribalism over Corbyn as if he’s special in any way, the unfounded sense of superiority... they’re so often incorrigible dicks. 

Seriously, yes.

2017 has shown officials of the labour party would rather have a Conservative government than a left wing Labour one. Anyone but the Tories, funnily certain Labour MPs at the time couldn't say they would rather have a Corbyn lead government rather than a Conservative one. 

Blair says he wouldn't want a left wing Labour party to win an election. 

How long was it after Corbyn was elected before a coup took place ? 

Yeah, it's in the past, get over it, move on. I accept all that but don't pretend what is happening now is the same, oh a few people on twitter are saying bad things about Starmer. 

Despite people openly opposing Starmer they will work for his election and happily say they will want a Labour win irrespective of who the leader is, just like they did under Blair, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn.

 

Are you really comparing working against the party during a general election to posting nasty things on Twitter ?

 

I don't know what a Corbyn area is, but the polls posted on this page show more members think Starmer was wrong to remove the whip than agree (very close), but the sweeping generalisation of only Corbyn Areas may make you feel better. I may be wrong but hasn't the first CLP to support Starmer for leader also passed a motion in favour of Corbyn ? Owen Smith (remember him) old CLP has passed a motion supporting Corbyn. 

 

I said in my post, that I was surprised that Corbyn has gone to the courts, I think it is the wrong thing to do, I am probably only saying that because I am being dishonest. 

 

You seemed to be obsessed with what people post on social media, I have no idea why. 

 

 

 

[sir roger]

I don''t think Blair or Brown gave a toss about unity ,they ( mainly the former ) just crushed the left by any means possible without a care. Milliband wasn't really there long enough to reverse the former factionalism and Corbyn made an effort ( to be fair he probably had to with the lack of left wing mps to work with ) but the great majority of the other mps had no interest in unity at all if the leader was from the left.

 

I genuinely thought  Starmer had a great chance to steer a middle ground but he seems to have veered towards the workings of the leaderships before Milliband. The Forde review will be interesting as I read an article in the Guardian or Independent a week or so back stating that the LOTO were a bit worried as Forde isn't sticking to their narrow brief and ' is talking to anybody who wants to speak to him '

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

31 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

Are you really comparing working against the party during a general election to posting nasty things on Twitter ?

No. To my knowledge I didn’t mention twitter, I mentioned CLP votes of no confidence and mentions of support and legal challenges, and crowd funding for Corbyn legal fees, and in addition to those things, I mentioned social media (from twitter, to bloggers like Skwakbox, to Facebook, etc). That, by no stretch of the English language, can be reduced to ‘nasty things on twitter’. Again, this is what I’m talking about. It’s us vs them mentality. 

 

31 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

don't know what a Corbyn area is, but the polls posted on this page show more members think Starmer was wrong to remove the whip than agree

Yes, I posted those. 46% of LabourList members think he shouldn’t be in the party. 
 

31 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

sweeping generalisation of only Corbyn Areas may make you feel better

Make me feel better? It’s not about how I feel. You’re conflating two different things: the views of LabourList members with CLP votes. To say they aren’t the same thing is quite an understatement. I should think it pretty obvious that those voting in a majority - against orders - in support of Corbyn are to safely be referred to as Corbyn supporting areas. I’m not saying they’re the only people who support him, I was just correctly referring to those supporting Corbyn. It would be very strange for a majority of Starmer supporters to vote in a majority in a vote of no confidence against Starmer. It doesn’t make me feel better, I just want it to go away. 
 

31 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

 

I said in my post, that I was surprised that Corbyn has gone to the courts, I think it is the wrong thing to do

It’s very well you thinking it’s the wrong thing to do (I’ve no idea if it is or isn’t, if need to know more about the situation) but I’m saying that it should be portrayed as anything but what it is, which is service to Corbyn. It’s certainly not in service to winning the seat of power in the country, quite the opposite. 
 

31 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

 

You seemed to be obsessed with what people post on social media, I have no idea why

I’m not obsessed with it. I do notice a trend, but that’s about it. I also think they’re cunts. They’re certainly not the only ones though. 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

3 hours ago, Numero said:

Seriously, this is what I’m talking about. It’s them, not us. Okay, we are going out of our way to undermine leadership on social media, funding legal action for the last leader, starting legal proceedings against the party, voting in Corbyn-supporting areas against Starmer and Evans, but we really are the ones who care more about the country than controlling the party, honest. They’re the baddies and we are the goodies.
 

I’m starting to despise large parts of the left. I love left wing policy - it’s in my very core - but many left wingers these days are prats. The group think, the tribalism over Corbyn as if he’s special in any way, the unfounded sense of superiority... they’re so often incorrigible dicks. 

This is where I am at. It all boiled over for me at the last election. While I am not fully behind Starmer, I can see how he's trying make things better and manage this mess he has inherited the best he can.

 

Corbyn, while I understand what his intentions were when he released that statement, he dug a hole for himself and should have just kept quiet. He left Starmer with no choice. How that was done, well we shall see if was done right or  not.

 

Corbyn was fucked after Brexit, I believe his initial stance on accepting the result was the right thing to do (even though I wanted to Remain). It was a democratic decision and he wished to respect it. Regardless of wether he was a remainer or a leaver, it doesn't matter, he looked to have respected the will of those that voted to Leave. If he had been allowed to stick to that, I believe he would have been PM now. How he would have handled the pandemic is anyone's guess, but I imagine the people would have been looked after first and foremost, then SME's then the big corporations (it's a guess, nothing more)

 

I do not believe that he is anti-semitic, and I also believe he should be taking those cunts Riley and Oberman et al to court, and anyone else who labels him as such and sue fuck out of them.

 

I also reckon he should walk away from being an MP too.

[sir roger]

Fair enough most of that post SM , but I disagree that Starmer had no option but to remove the whip from Corbyn.

 

My view is that the EHRC report gave Starmer an open goal and he managed to Rosenthal it ( I hope that isn't anti-semitic these days ).

 

- EHRC Report comes out and Starmer accepts it and agrees to implement all recommendations

- Corbyn puts out his comment

- Starmer condemns it in the strongest terms and aays that is why there is a new sheriff in town and there won't be any prevarication over a/s in the party going forward .

- Van Der Zar and Hodge  kick off wanting Corbyn binned.

- Starmer points out once again that he disagrees completely with Corbyn's comments but he has accepted the report in full as everybody has demanded and the EHRC forbids any action on people , especially mp's , making comments they believe are correct.

- Some people will still be annoyed but can't really turn 180 degrees and ask to subvert the report without bringing their real intentions into clear sight and civil war is averted / postponed in the party. 

 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

10 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Fair enough most of that post SM , but I disagree that Starmer had no option but to remove the whip from Corbyn.

 

My view is that the EHRC report gave Starmer an open goal and he managed to Rosenthal it ( I hope that isn't anti-semitic these days ).

 

- EHRC Report comes out and Starmer accepts it and agrees to implement all recommendations

- Corbyn puts out his comment

- Starmer condemns it in the strongest terms and aays that is why there is a new sheriff in town and there won't be any prevarication over a/s in the party going forward .

- Van Der Zar and Hodge  kick off wanting Corbyn binned.

- Starmer points out once again that he disagrees completely with Corbyn's comments but he has accepted the report in full as everybody has demanded and the EHRC forbids any action on people , especially mp's , making comments they believe are correct.

- Some people will still be annoyed but can't really turn 180 degrees and ask to subvert the report without bringing their real intentions into clear sight and civil war is averted / postponed in the party. 

 

 

 

Mate, that’s not how it would happen. It would be endless repetition of the more damning parts of the report. It would be endless repetition of him saying he’s not part of the problem and him rejecting findings. Then it would be endless accusations of Starmer being the same as the last leader and accepting antisemitism and how he lied about dealing with it. It started the second Corbyn was allowed back in to the party. That’s without Labour Party members leaving and throwing shit all over the place. It certainly wouldn’t have any unity. All whilst the Tories used it to hide behind. 

[sir roger]

Cant know now how it would have gone, but sticking with the EHRC report would have given Starmer the back up to subsequent complaints re his actions.

 

I also think Starmer is in a better place than Corbyn as he has more journalists on his side who will not just copy and paste any old shite from the usual suspects.

 

It's all a bit crazy as I reckon the Anti -semitism stories probably lost Labour less than one per cent of the votes that Corbyn / Brexit did and the vast majority of people in the country don't really understand it or give a shit about it.

[Gnasher]

6 hours ago, Scooby Dudek said:

Only one side of the party has shown that they care more about being in control of the party than being control of the country.

 

 

Starmer, should have let the investigation run it course. Once the NEC voted unanimously to let him back into the party, that should have been an end to it. It appears people then kicked off and he once again tried to appease these people and as most know whatever you do will never be enough.

 

No one knows what discussions took place between the leadership and Corbyn, but I am very surprised Corbyn is going to court either way. The evidence presented will tell us a lot of where people's priorities lie, on both sides.

Exactly. Starmer should have let the investigation run its course instead of letting Nicol take cheap pot shots at Corbyn.

 

The claims against Corbyn are bullshit and almost everybody knows it. As for taking the membership and core vote for granted Labour need to reflect how quick their house of cards fell up in Scotland.

[Gnasher]

On 23/11/2020 at 11:52, Strontium Dog™ said:

Isn't peace a good thing? I'm confused. 

Hmmm? Mike Pompeo, Bin Sulaman and Bibi all in the same room.

 

Peace you say?  Be confused no more.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-middle-east-55105934

[Bruce Spanner]

4 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Hmmm? Mike Pompeo, Bin Sulaman and Bibi all in the same room.

 

Peace you say?  Be confused no more.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-middle-east-55105934

I was talking about this a few weeks back about how the US/Israel we’re offering LOTS of cash to say you’re a friend of Israel. No other real reason apart from some gumph about ‘Normalising relations’ which is only a lip service requirement. 
 

All very odd.

[Gnasher]

I imagine all the people criticising Russia over the Novichec poisoning in Salisbury will have it right in for Istael over the Iranian assassination.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

You'll never guess who's been rumbled for being lying bastards...again...

 

But, we can't say anything about false accusations and smears, remember... 

 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/gerald-downing-ipso-rules-against-jc-1.509327