Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[moof]

6 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yet achieved more progressive social policies than anybody in our lifetimes. Look, I fucking hate Blair, but not because he’s some right winger. Look at what the Brown/Blair combination gave to the country. Aside from the wars, I would much rather swallow the parts of their politics I find unpalatable than the Tories. 
 

BTW, I’m not saying Blairism is the only option. At all. 

What did the Blair government give us? Yes there were social improvements, people brought out of poverty, minimum wage, human rights improvements. Nobody is saying these are bad. It also paved the road for the conditions we’re currently living through. Selling off public assets, deregulation, Thatcherite economics. The third way? It wasn’t some bygone era. It led directly to all the problems we are currently facing. Wars, crash, austerity, brexit. 

[moof]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

Well obviously. I am a centrist liberal.

They are centrist liberal. They are still left wing compared to you 

[RobbieOR]

16 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yet achieved more progressive social policies than anybody in our lifetimes. Look, I fucking hate Blair, but not because he’s some right winger. Look at what the Brown/Blair combination gave to the country. Aside from the wars, I would much rather swallow the parts of their politics I find unpalatable than the Tories. 
 

BTW, I’m not saying Blairism is the only option. At all. 

 

I have never said they were right wing but the idea that they're any sort of socialists is bollocks when they've both used any sort of opportunity to tell us how bad the current leadership of the party is. One of them deliberately making a point of promoting the Lib Dems to make a point. 

 

If you have that influence and you care about the wider society you don't completely try and detonate any chance they have of winning by undermining them. If you have any sort of social conscience then you back Corbyn. It's as simple as that.  

[Strontium]

Just now, moof said:

They are centrist liberal. They are still left wing compared to you 

 

They're absolutely not liberals at all. Not even close. I remember their war on civil liberties even if others have forgotten.

[Duff Man]

13 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Media notwithstanding, why are you all so sure socialist policies are so popular with the public and the voters? The tow-party system has always pushed most radical ideas to the margins and favoured broad tents, it seems to be the tradition in anglophone countries.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tactical-voting-blog/labour-manifesto-policies-popular-polling-nationalise-tax-rising-a9214276.html

[TheHowieLama]

4 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tactical-voting-blog/labour-manifesto-policies-popular-polling-nationalise-tax-rising-a9214276.html

Of course, Labour is still far behind in the polls, with the Tories averaging around 10 point lead. But it very difficult to find any evidence to suggest that Labour's policy platform is causing that. 

 

 

So it is something else

[Bjornebye]

8 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

They're absolutely not liberals at all. Not even close. I remember their war on civil liberties even if others have forgotten.

I remember when Swinson and the Libs propped up Austerity and the bedroom tax. And voted to reduce welfare for the disabled. 

[SasaS]

2 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tactical-voting-blog/labour-manifesto-policies-popular-polling-nationalise-tax-rising-a9214276.html

Bur this is a survey of various proposals in this election's manifesto, not a survey of how many people would vote for socialism. For example, the support for the free broadband (who doesn't like free stuff) is twice as high as the support for nationalizing BT's network developing company. 

[Jairzinho]

17 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Media notwithstanding, why are you all so sure socialist policies are so popular with the public and the voters? 

Because every time they're asked whether they favour nationalisation, higher taxes on the rich, building more houses, etc, etc they always say they're in favour.

 

Then they get told ZOMG HE IS A HOLOCAUST DENYING CZECH SPY THAT BUMMED A CORGI TO DEATH WITH HIS MUSLAMIC RAY COCK and they vote Tory.

[moof]

10 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

 

They're absolutely not liberals at all. Not even close. I remember their war on civil liberties even if others have forgotten.

Fair play, you’re not wrong there. Especially when it comes to the expansion of mass surveillance etc. Centrist neoliberals is perhaps a better fit 

[Duff Man]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Of course, Labour is still far behind in the polls, with the Tories averaging around 10 point lead. But it very difficult to find any evidence to suggest that Labour's policy platform is causing that. 

 

 

So it is something else

The polling shows the policies are popular.

[Duff Man]

2 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Bur this is a survey of various proposals in this election's manifesto, not a survey of how many people would vote for socialism. For example, the support for the free broadband (who doesn't like free stuff) is twice as high as the support for nationalizing BT's network developing company. 

It's evidence of socialist policies being popular, which is what you asked for.

[Strontium]

I'd be surprised if giving people money and stuff for free wasn't popular with a great many people. This, of course, doesn't automatically make it feasible, right or desirable.

[TheHowieLama]

3 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

The polling shows the policies are popular.

Yea, it also says Labour is trailing by double digits - so it is not the policies not winning votes, it is something else right?

[Duff Man]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

Yea, it also says Labour is trailing by double digits - so it is not the policies not winning votes, it is something else right?

Ok, what do you think it is? The wild popularity of the leader?

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Duff Man said:

Ok, what do you think it is? The wild popularity of the leader?

I'm not in the UK mate -- I was asking you.

[Duff Man]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

I'm not in the UK mate -- I was asking you.

I'd say it was the policies, which are demonstrably popular. Otherwise what else is there?

[SasaS]

5 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Because every time they're asked whether they favour nationalisation, higher taxes on the rich, building more houses, etc, etc they always say they're in favour.

 

Then they get told ZOMG HE IS A HOLOCAUST DENYING CZECH SPY THAT BUMMED A CORGI TO DEATH WITH HIS MUSLAMIC RAY COCK and they vote Tory.

 

3 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

It's evidence of socialist policies being popular, which is what you asked for.

But many of them are not socialist policies, natural monopolies are publicly owned in many capitalist countries, free broadband is part of Farage's manifesto too, nationalization of railways would take some of it out of the hands of German government and give it to the UK one.

You are mostly arguing that Labour must remain in the hands of its left wing and people would then vote for it, because this is what people actually want.

[moof]

It’s a right wing collaborative - or in its best guise, a supine media owned and run by billionaires. A Conservative party that prays on the worst side of human nature. A decades long demonisation and marginalisation of socialist politics. An economic dogma that preaches free market competition and a top heavy wealth accumulation. A framework that allows politics and politicians to be bought and sold. 
 

or it’s all corbyn’s fault. 

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Duff Man said:

I'd say it was the policies, which are demonstrably popular. Otherwise what else is there?

Not sure we are on the same page, we agree the policies - when taken in that context are popular. If we accept the policies are popular, but the party is getting trounced by double digits then something is costing the party votes, right?

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, moof said:

It’s a right wing collaborative

Was this collaborative not in place the last time Labour were in power?

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, SasaS said:

 

But many of them are not socialist policies, natural monopolies are publicly owned in many capitalist countries, free broadband is part of Farage's manifesto too, nationalization of railways would take some of it out of the hands of German government and give it to the UK one.

You are mostly arguing that Labour must remain in the hands of its left wing and people would then vote for it, because this is what people actually want.

What is a capitalist country? Everything bar North Korea? I mean this is a pretty tedious lexical argument, isn't it? You know what people meant. Some of Farage's economic policies probably are to the left of the Tories. 

 

Economic policies that are a long way to the left of what we have now are popular with the general public. Policies that are common place in many Northern European countries now. It's for this very reason that the public has to be lied to constantly. That the policies aren't feasible, that those in charge of parties that want these policies kill swans, etc, etc. 

[RobbieOR]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

Not sure we are on the same page, we agree the policies - when taken in that context are popular. If we accept the policies are popular, but the party is getting trounced by double digits then something is costing the party votes, right?

 

The right wing using the media via divide and conquer tactics to split the vote is a factor. 

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

Was this collaborative not in place the last time Labour were in power?

Not to the same extent, no. 

[Duff Man]

3 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Not sure we are on the same page, we agree the policies - when taken in that context are popular. If we accept the policies are popular, but the party is getting trounced by double digits then something is costing the party votes, right?

Yes, the perception of the leader.