Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Scooby Dudek]

15 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

No-deal would be catastrophic I agree, and should be avoided at all costs, but how come something like the EEA agreement hasn’t been seriously explored?

 

it does bother and I think they should be punished for it (heavily fined or jailed).

I believe the irony of the right wing nut cases talking about democracy and 2016 (not you by the way) have always wanted No deal but didn't have the courage of their convictions to campaign on this in 2016. They campaigned for a euphoric Leave scenario, which they knew was not possible and which they themselves never wanted.   

Red lines were put in place that made any decent deal impossible and any deal that was brought back was never going to be acceptable to them.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Also, why the fuck were Aussie citizens allowed to vote? 

[Captain Turdseye]

18 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

No, if the choice is between no-deal or remain then of course I’d choose remain, but you can’t argue that it’s democratic to do so. I believe the government should focus on trying to get the least damaging deal possible though to avoid the scenario you mentioned above. Something like the EEA where you continue to have free trade but you have less of a say in the decision-making.

 

We don’t want a Norway style Brexit. Only a red, white and blue Brexit will do for us.

[Numero Veinticinco]

14 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I can argue it's democratic to do so. Because I don't feel the first vote was democratic, as it broke electoral law and was based on lies. 

 

Even if it was democratic, having an additional vote to give the same people a free vote wouldn’t be less democratic it would be more. Ardj still hasn’t explained how more democracy is less democracy. 

[cloggypop]

8 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Also, why the fuck were Aussie citizens allowed to vote? 

It's a bit mad that Aussies could and British long term EU residents couldn't. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, cloggypop said:

It's a bit mad that Aussies could and British long term EU residents couldn't. 

Yeah, fucking ridiculous. Democracy, eh. 

[aRdja]

1 minute ago, cloggypop said:

It's a bit mad that Aussies could and British long term EU residents couldn't. 

Agreed. All commonwealth citizens could vote. One of the ‘perks’ I guess.

[aRdja]

10 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Even if it was democratic, having an additional vote to give the same people a free vote wouldn’t be less democratic it would be more. Ardj still hasn’t explained how more democracy is less democracy. 

I have NV, but you just don’t like the answer.

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

I have NV, but you just don’t like the answer.

No, you haven’t. I’m asking how more democracy is less democracy, you’re answering a question that goes something like ‘how is ignoring the result of a legally binding, fact-based, free and fair referendum democratic’. That’s nothing to do with either the question I asked or reality. So could you answer how more democracy is less democracy. Please. 

[aRdja]

4 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

No, you haven’t. I’m asking how more democracy is less democracy, you’re answering a question that goes something like ‘how is ignoring the result of a legally binding, fact-based, free and fair referendum democratic’. That’s nothing to do with either the question I asked or reality. So could you answer how more democracy is less democracy. Please. 

It’s only democratic if you implement the result of an election/referendum. Asking the sameness question over and over again until you get the right answer is not democratic IMO.

[Numero Veinticinco]

6 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

It’s only democratic if you implement the result of an election/referendum. Asking the sameness question over and over again until you get the right answer is not democratic IMO.

Why don’t you believe in the right of the electorate to change their mind now they have more information? And, considering the meaning of the word democracy, how is not giving the people more power over their destiny more democratic than giving them less power? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Captain Turdseye said:

 

 Only a red, white and blue Brexit will do for us.

Fuck me, I'd forgotten about that.

 

She should have been binned out of her job the moment she came out with that.

[aRdja]

52 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Why don’t you believe in the right of the electorate to change their mind now they have more information? And, considering the meaning of the word democracy, how is not giving the people more power over their destiny more democratic than giving them less power? 

Some argue the information was always there all along, but let’s not go down that route. Both parties were given time to campaign and argue that case; Remain warned against the risks of Brexit, and the people voted to leave. How many times do votes do you need? You can find more information about the pros and cons everyday. Should we have a vote every year to rejoin the EU after we leave? If you render their vote meaningless, it’d actually take away any “power” the people thought they had....

[skend04]

2 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Some argue the information was always there all along, but let’s not go down that route. Both parties were given time to campaign and argue that case; Remain warned against the risks of Brexit, and the people voted to leave. How many times do votes do you need? You can find more information about the pros and cons everyday. Should we have a vote every year to rejoin the EU after we leave? 

Remain warned against the risks but Leave and the MSM dismissed it as project fear. Leavers didn't vote inspite of the consequences, they voted in the belief that the things happening wouldn't happen.

 

It's pure cognitive dissonance now with leave voters.

[Numero Veinticinco]

12 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Some argue the information was always there all along, but let’s not go down that route. Both parties were given time to campaign and argue that case; Remain warned against the risks of Brexit, and the people voted to leave. How many times do votes do you need? You can find more information about the pros and cons everyday. Should we have a vote every year to rejoin the EU after we leave? If you render their vote meaningless, it’d actually take away any “power” the people thought they had....

You’ve avoided the question again. I’m done. 

[magicrat]

19 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

Some argue the information was always there all along, but let’s not go down that route. Both parties were given time to campaign and argue that case; Remain warned against the risks of Brexit, and the people voted to leave. How many times do votes do you need? You can find more information about the pros and cons everyday. Should we have a vote every year to rejoin the EU after we leave? If you render their vote meaningless, it’d actually take away any “power” the people thought they had....

Just how far down the line does the referendum vote carry any validity. Rightly or wrongly we haven't left and to keep on the saying the will of the people must be respected is bollocks. The will of the people needs to be checked .

[Numero Veinticinco]

26 minutes ago, magicrat said:

Just how far down the line does the referendum vote carry any validity. Rightly or wrongly we haven't left and to keep on the saying the will of the people must be respected is bollocks. The will of the people needs to be checked .

The will is, apparently, only important once. 

[Scooby Dudek]

Leaving with No deal was never an option, nobody voted for it. So how is doing something that no one voted for democratic ?

 

 

[Mudface]

The 'will of the people' appears to be whatever the current Tory PM/ party wants to do. Reminiscent of Thatcher's There is No Alternative bullshit and the imposition of austerity on the grounds we'd fold like Greece.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

53 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Remain warned against the risks but Leave and the MSM dismissed it as project fear. Leavers didn't vote inspite of the consequences, they voted in the belief that the things happening wouldn't happen.

 

It's pure cognitive dissonance now with leave voters.

Not all of them did. 

 

It isn’t with all of them. 

 

There are loads who used it as a protest vote and also voted Leave for a laugh thinking it wouldn’t win. Those who voted Leave for a laugh should be banned from voting ever again.

 

There are as many intelligent people who voted to leave as those that voted Remain. The problem is, you only get to see the real thick and entrenched ones on the telly. 

 

Lets not put everyone in the thick category. 

[Pureblood]

I agree that the result of the referendum should be respected and implemented in as least damaging a way as possible.  No deal is unacceptable, though, so if that is the proposed solution I would back a second referendum. 

[mattyq]

Goes without saying that Brexit is stupid and if it ever happens very dangerous but I have a degree of sympathy with Virdgill's point of view.

What I do think is bizarre is the insistence of a generation between votes - that doesn't seem like democracy to me just some arbitrary figure plucked from nowhere.

I also think you've got to think carefully about the mandate... we've had 3 PMs and 2 Governments since the ref... the reason why we haven't left yet is due almost entirely to the incompetence of Theresa May. If she'd gone with staying in the SM and CU we'd be out by now but her red lines...

So, I think it's entirely proper that we test the mandate again and have a 2nd ref... democracy is dynamic and a process not a fixed moment in time

[Boss]

6 hours ago, viRdjil said:

I do appreciate that his focus is in getting a deal and stopping no deal, but I don’t believe the choice of remain should be in the ballot paper for reasons I’ve mentioned before.

 

As soon as I read that I could tell you were going to get a torrent of abuse for it. Fair play brother. You are a true democrat and I respect that.

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

5 minutes ago, Boss said:

 

As soon as I read that I could tell you were going to get a torrent of abuse for it. Fair play brother. You are a true democrat and I respect that.

 

A true democrat who doesn’t believing in asking the people. Honestly, it’s beyond fucking parody. I’ll give a million pounds to the first person that can answer how more democracy is less democracy. 

 

As for ‘torrent of abuse’, I think being told to fuck off, once, is probably a little less than that. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 vote vs 2 votes. 

 

Whats more democratic? If it’s 1 vote, isn’t zero votes even more democratic again? 

 

Good stuff.