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Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?


Sugar Ape
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Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?  

218 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?



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25 minutes ago, moof said:

Essentially that racism requires some historical context. There’s no history of whites being systemically oppressed in this country. White people can’t experience actual, structural racism - so any comments based on their skin colour is ultimately benign. 

Fair enough. I do disagree with your definition of racism, so that's where the basis of me not agreeing comes from. 

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1 minute ago, Hank Moody said:

Fair enough. I do disagree with your definition of racism, so that's where the basis of me not agreeing comes from. 

I guessed as much. People are, of course, free to hold prejudices against white people - and even act on those prejudices. I would still not class it as “racism” per se, as there isn’t that context of oppression and power; but you can certainly have incidents of racially aggravated violence, for example. 

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16 minutes ago, Anny Road said:

Is racism defined only by having a different skin colour? 

 

Nope, it's about being part of a different race and seeing that race as superior, pre-judging a person as inferior because they're a member of another race. In most cases, acting upon those beliefs or making comments about it will get you called a racist. I absolutely believe that if a non-white kills a white person because they're white then it's a racist murder. Clearly, in my opinion. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

I joke about it, but the "you can't be racist against white people" notion is a bit sinister. In fact, it goes some way to explaining Labour's antisemitism problem. Because Jews are "white" in their book - witness Andrew Murray's assertion that Hitler is only hated so much because his victims were white - and if you can't be racist against white people, you can't be racist against Jews.

 

I just hope I live long enough to see rabid identity politics consigned to the dustbin of history.

Well it's true. The more advanced a civilisation the more people will care about atrocities committed against them. That means they are expected to be above collective grievance movements that legitimately "belong" to people with less means or intelligence.

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7 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

Sorry, had to neg the "lol".

 

I'll rep you calling me a dickhead to make up for it though, as that deserves it.

You can take that rep back, yer wanker. I wasn’t actually calling you a dickhead, I just thought that was a dickhead post. I wasn’t blindly defending abbot, I was engaging on strontiums bullshit point. (More fool me)

 

(The lol was ironic)

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10 minutes ago, moof said:

I guessed as much. People are, of course, free to hold prejudices against white people - and even act on those prejudices. I would still not class it as “racism” per se, as there isn’t that context of oppression and power; but you can certainly have incidents of racially aggravated violence, for example. 

There doesn't need to be any context of oppression or power, in my view. I don't like the grouping, I prefer the individual. A black person, the beneficiary of privileged education and inherited wealth, perhaps somebody similar to Chuka Umunna, who goes out and attacks somebody BECAUSE they're white, is, in my view, a racist. 

 

I've never oppressed anybody, and I shouldn't be guilty of the crimes of people through history just because I have the same colour skin as them. It's the only characteristic I share with them. Not their privilege, not their inherited wealth and, most importantly, certainly not their actions. I believe in equality of opportunity, I think everybody starts with the same value as a human being. Your actions after that are your own. I'm no more guilty of Hitler's crimes than a black person is of Idi Amin's. 

 

We are all just people. 

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4 minutes ago, moof said:

You can take that rep back, yer wanker. I wasn’t actually calling you a dickhead, I just thought that was a dickhead post. I wasn’t blindly defending abbot, I was engaging on strontiums bullshit point. 

 

(The lol was ironic)

 

Ironic lols are the worst of all.

 

Now fuck off in your roflcopter for not calling me a dickhead.

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6 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

There doesn't need to be any context of oppression or power, in my view. I don't like the grouping, I prefer the individual. A black person, the beneficiary of privileged education and inherited wealth, perhaps somebody similar to Chuka Umunna, who goes out and attacks somebody BECAUSE they're white, is, in my view, a racist. 

 

I've never oppressed anybody, and I shouldn't be guilty of the crimes of people through history just because I have the same colour skin as them. It's the only characteristic I share with them. Not their privilege, not their inherited wealth and, most importantly, certainly not their actions. I believe in equality of opportunity, I think everybody starts with the same value as a human being. Your actions after that are your own. I'm no more guilty of Hitler's crimes than a black person is of Idi Amin's. 

 

We are all just people. 

“...oh lord, kumbaya”

 

i definitely agree with the sentiment, mate. I think it plays out slightly differently in the real world but I get your point and see where the disagreement comes from.

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4 hours ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

That’s not her only questionable comment either. https://news.sky.com/story/amp/diane-abbotts-history-of-gaffes-10482258

 

She was an absolute laughing stock on here before Corbyn became leader, akin to someone like Boris Johnson for making gaffes all the time. 

 

Diane isn't my cup of tea at times but let's have some balance. There are some things she has got right and shown excellent  judgement and insight on. 

 

Pfi 1998 From Hansard. 

 

How do the Government respond when not just Labour voters, but electors around the country ask: from where will the investment in public services come? Ministers

26 Oct 1998 : Column 65

talk about the public finance initiative. I do not wish to examine that mechanism in detail, but I put it to the House that, although PFI sounds like some sort of magic wand, in truth, it is a glorified form of hire purchase. We shall face all sorts of problems regarding the long-term effects of PFI on public expenditure. PFI is fine when used to build a toll bridge, but it is a very dangerous and dubious instrument to use in the health service. If colleagues believe that PFI will get them out of their public expenditure fix, they are very much mistaken. I refer them to the many excellent reports produced on this subject by the Treasury Select Committee in the last Parliament.

 

The outcome we all know. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/30/pfi-britain-hospital-trust-debt-burden-tax

 

Next time you have an appointment cancelled at hospital, or a headteacher tells you their school will be losing staff because of budget cuts, ask how much PFI debt they have – the answer may surprise you. My hospital trust, in north-east London, spends nearly £150m a year repaying its PFI debt – nearly half of which is on interest payments. If Theresa May is serious about taking on the unacceptable face of capitalism, she could save Britain a fortune if she goes after the legal loan sharks of the public sector.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/30/pfi-britain-hospital-trust-debt-burden-tax

 

Iraq 

 

13 Mar 2003

The Voice 
Two weeks ago, over 120 Labour MPs voted against Tony Blair and war with Iraq.  It was the biggest parliamentary rebellion for over 100 years.  I was proud to be one of the rebels.  I am against the war with Iraq because I think it would be: wrong; illegal; damaging to the world’s economy; result in the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqi men women and children and create instability throughout the Muslim world and the Middle East

 

2014 immigration act that changed the rules for commonwealth citizens, some suggest this was partially responsible that allowed for the deportation of British citizens. Abbott questioned May who was Home Secretary at the time about how this would impact British citizens who might be treated as illegal mistakenly. We know how that turned out. 

 

The 2008 speech on 42 day detention is pretty good.  

 

Diane Abbott's 42-days speech

The Hackney North and Stoke Newington MP's speech last night was hailed by the Tory who followed her, David Davies, as 'one of the finest speeches I have heard since being elected to the House of Commons'. Here is what she said

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2008/jun/12/terrorism.civilliberties

 

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5 minutes ago, Denny Crane said:

 

Diane isn't my cup of tea but let's have some balance. There are some things she has got right and shown excellent  judgement and insight on. 

*waffle*

I normally make a point of not discussing stuff with Code-a-likes who are just copy and paste merchants; but she was against Iraq and PFI? So fucking what. She’s been a politician for as long as I’ve been alive, like all of them she will have called loads right and loads wrong. 

 

None of that negates the shit she’s come out with about white people. She’s an utter buffon.

 

And that was the view of nearly everyone on the forum, I can pull loads of quotes stating that if I could be arsed. It’s only since Corbyn became leader and people starting bumming up to anyone who backs him that she’s been reinvented as a competent politician rather than the shambles she’s been for most of her career.

 

And yes Hades, I’ve no problem comparing her to Boris Johnson. Both racist liabilities whenever they open their mouths.

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15 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

I normally make a point of not discussing stuff with Code-a-likes who are just copy and paste merchants; but she was against Iraq and PFI? So fucking what. She’s been a politician for as long as I’ve been alive, like all of them she will have called loads right and loads wrong. 

 

None of that negates the shit she’s come out with about white people. She’s an utter buffon.

 

And that was the view of nearly everyone on the forum, I can pull loads of quotes stating that if I could be arsed. It’s only since Corbyn became leader and people starting bumming up to anyone who backs him that she’s been reinvented as a competent politician rather than the shambles she’s been for most of her career.

 

And yes Hades, I’ve no problem comparing her to Boris Johnson. Both racist liabilities whenever they open their mouths.

 

16936013-E310-4465-B55B-BA50FE20D947.gif

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17 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

I normally make a point of not discussing stuff with Code-a-likes who are just copy and paste merchants; but she was against Iraq and PFI? So fucking what. She’s been a politician for as long as I’ve been alive, like all of them she will have called loads right and loads wrong. 

 

None of that negates the shit she’s come out with about white people. She’s an utter buffon.

 

And that was the view of nearly everyone on the forum, I can pull loads of quotes stating that if I could be arsed. It’s only since Corbyn became leader and people starting bumming up to anyone who backs him that she’s been reinvented as a competent politician rather than the shambles she’s been for most of her career.

 

And yes Hades, I’ve no problem comparing her to Boris Johnson. Both racist liabilities whenever they open their mouths.


JRM would probably say comparing her to a slaughterhouse may be a bit harsh.

 

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30 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

I normally make a point of not discussing stuff with Code-a-likes who are just copy and paste merchants; but she was against Iraq and PFI? So fucking what. She’s been a politician for as long as I’ve been alive, like all of them she will have called loads right and loads wrong. 

 

None of that negates the shit she’s come out with about white people. She’s an utter buffon.

 

And that was the view of nearly everyone on the forum, I can pull loads of quotes stating that if I could be arsed. It’s only since Corbyn became leader and people starting bumming up to anyone who backs him that she’s been reinvented as a competent politician rather than the shambles she’s been for most of her career.

 

And yes Hades, I’ve no problem comparing her to Boris Johnson. Both racist liabilities whenever they open their mouths.

 

I think this post says far more about you than it does about Diane Abbott. 

 

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1 hour ago, moof said:

Essentially that racism requires some historical context. There’s no history of whites being systemically oppressed in this country. White people can’t experience actual, structural racism - so any comments based on their skin colour is ultimately benign. 

 

What about Irish people who were shipped off as slaves in the 1600-1700's? Is their plight not acknowledgeable because they're white?

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2 minutes ago, Denny Crane said:

 

I think this post says far more about you than it does about Diane Abbott. 

 

 

I’ll be sure to rethink my entire existence because some random internet loon compares me unfavourably to Diane Abbott.

 

1 minute ago, Boss said:

 

What about Irish people who were shipped off as slaves in the 1600-1700's? Is their plight not acknowledgeable because they're white?

 

SD had the most valid point imo. Racism in the form of antisemitism happens to white people in this country on a daily basis.

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