Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Bjornebye]

8 minutes ago, A Red said:

I believe calling Jews for not renouncing Israel is anti-semetic. Calling Jews or Israel for backing or defending the killing of palestinians is not anti-semetic

 

Calling for Muslims to do more against ISIS is not being anti-islam. Calling for Muslims to do more about Saudi Arabia, for example, is anti-islam.

 

In my opinion Hattons 2012 tweet was indeed anti-semetic and the Labour party is absolutely right to deny membership, whether the rules then are the rules now. It sends a good message.

 

 

How is it anti-semitic? Its not just Jews I want to denounce Isreal but you know, Jewish influence is stronger than any other on that murderous cunt of a nation  

 

"I disagree with Palestinian kids getting blown up"

 

Anti-Semitic. Aww bless. Fuck off Israel is a cunt of a country for what is happening in Gaza. Im not saying others aren't guilty of being cunts as well but Israel definitely is one. They just don't like being told it. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

4 minutes ago, A Red said:

I believe calling Jews for not renouncing Israel is anti-semetic. Calling Jews or Israel for backing or defending the killing of palestinians is not anti-semetic

 

Calling for Muslims to do more against ISIS is not being anti-islam. Calling for Muslims to do more about Saudi Arabia, for example, is anti-islam.

 

In my opinion Hattons 2012 tweet was indeed anti-semetic and the Labour party is absolutely right to deny membership, whether the rules then are the rules now. It sends a good message.

 

 

Fair points. 

 

But, what should the final action be for Hatton and other such members, who may have no other infractions against them? 

 

There seems to be no leeway when it comes to clumsy is it/isn't antisemitism, whereas all other forms of discrimination seem to be brushed off with an I was misspoken/sorry if I caused offence/I've come to recognise that my language wasn't appropriate non-apology. 

 

As the lines are often blurred, as even acknowledged by the "might be" terminology of the IHRA definition, should it not be enough in cases like Hatton's etc for an apology, a formal warning and some sort of educational programme. For me, that'd be a better solution to help solve the problem of antisemitism, as the current approach still has hints of don't criticise Israel or that's it about it. 

 

Save the sterner punishments for the horrible, more clear cut cases and systematic, repeat offenders. 

[stringvest]

8 minutes ago, A Red said:

I believe calling Jews for not renouncing Israel is anti-semetic. Calling Jews or Israel for backing or defending the killing of palestinians is not anti-semetic

 

Calling for Muslims to do more against ISIS is not being anti-islam. Calling for Muslims to do more about Saudi Arabia, for example, is anti-islam.

 

In my opinion Hattons 2012 tweet was indeed anti-semetic and the Labour party is absolutely right to deny membership, whether the rules then are the rules now. It sends a good message.

 

 

I can't agree with that.  Renouncing the behaviour or the prevailing culture of either country is nothing to do with the religion, but everything to do with how the leadership of these countries sanction the repression and/or killing and/or starvation and/or ethnic cleansing in the name of that religion.  The people fronting those countries are nothing but murderous cunts, and deserve to be put to the sword. 

[SasaS]

48 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Whatever the context is there’s no excuse for bragging about money IMO.

 

Clients never learn, eh? And when the taxman comes, it's the accountant's fault.  

[Bjornebye]

6 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

For me, that'd be a better solution to help solve the problem of antisemitism, as the current approach still has hints of don't criticise Israel or that's it about it. 

 

Save the sterner punishments for the horrible, more clear cut cases and systematic, repeat offenders. 

In a nutshell. Don't dare. Anyone else is fair game. 

[A Red]

1 minute ago, Nelly-Torres said:

Fair points. 

 

But, what should the final action be for Hatton and other such members, who may have no other infractions against them? 

 

There seems to be no leeway when it comes to clumsy is it/isn't antisemitism, whereas all other forms of discrimination seem to be brushed off with an I was misspoken/sorry if I caused offence/I've come to recognise that my language wasn't appropriate non-apology. 

 

As the lines are often blurred, as even acknowledged by the "might be" terminology of the IHRA definition, should it not be enough in cases like Hatton's etc for an apology, a formal warning and some sort of educational programme. For me, that'd be a better solution to help solve the problem of antisemitism, as the current approach still has hints of don't criticise Israel or that's it about it. 

 

Save the sterner punishments for the horrible, more clear cut cases and systematic, repeat offenders. 

I think that Labour has to be seen to do something given the current circumstances. Yes, its not the worst thing that he could have said and if i was a Jew I wouldnt be bothered, but having said that i dont understand what it is like to be Jewish. If Labour didnt deny membership they open themselves to all sorts of abuse.

 

I'm not left wing or a Labour supporter but credit where its due.

[aRdja]

10 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

Clients never learn, eh? And when the taxman comes, it's the accountant's fault.  

 

 

I’m a management accountant mate i.e., I play with excel and make bar charts and waterfall charts all day.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Saying you believe more Jews should speak out against Israel isn't antisemitic. I mean, how could you arrive at that conclusion. Hating Jews because they're Jews is antisemitic. Asking for Jewish people to speak out against the crimes of a 'Jewish state', the creation of which was to protect them from horrendous crimes and give them somewhere to live, isn't antisemitic. It's about credibility and not being able to be charged down with cried of antisemitism. I mean, the Jewish people have been the recipients of some truly horrendous crimes, the last thing we need to do is water down the meaning of antisemitism so that any time somebody says something it is brought up. Most of all, we shouldn't water it down by attempting to deflect criticism of Israel or its government by shouting antisemitism. There are legitimate reasons to despise how Israel acts, and most people object to it for those reasons and nothing to do with Jewishness. 

[A Red]

Singling out Jews around the world to denounce Israel is anti-semitic, it is implying a responsibility to them and potentially stirring up hatred against them for the actions of a country over which they have no control. It doesnt matter, in my opinion, whether it is a Jewish state or not.

 

Israel is not acting in the name of Judaism any more than Saudi is in the name of Islam. Singling out Muslims around the world for the actions of a government, Saudi e.g, over which they have no control, is anti islamic. It is implying blame and potentially stirs up hatred.

 

ISIS is a different matter, it does act in the name of Islam and the message spread via its religious teachers. Not all obviously.

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

I don't agree with that Hatton tweet at all. Sounds like he was a right cunt as well back when he was involved with Labour.

 

I can go on about Zionists and the Israeli gov regularly, but I don't agree at all with stuff like implying that all Jews should criticise Israel in order to prove that they have any sense of humanity. That's just off, there's probably a lot of Jews who have good reason not to get involved in all this shit, especially if it could cause them problems with family, work, people they live near, etc. Or there could be a good number of Jews that are already living stressful lives and don't want to add to that if they already don't identify with Israel at all and don't feel like being involved in the arguments.

 

To say it's wrong that they don't speak out implies they're guilty of something collectively that an Israeli gov they might not feel anything for or live anywhere near is doing. Would prefer to think if awareness is raised enough of how bad it is for Palestinians enough people would decide to do something naturally, and that those already involved with activism could be encouraged to speak out if they're not doing so already and they agree with doing so.

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, A Red said:

Singling out Jews around the world to denounce Israel is anti-semitic, it is implying a responsibility to them

Nah, it isn't. They're not responsible. Just more credible. If you want to read into it and add meaning to it, I guess that's up to you.

[A Red]

1 minute ago, Hank Moody said:

Nah, it isn't. They're not responsible. Just more credible. If you want to read into it and add meaning to it, I guess that's up to you.

I see the same for Jews and Muslims. Hatton would not have dared tweeting about Muslims with humanity speaking out against Saudi

[SasaS]

30 minutes ago, aRdja said:

 

I’m a management accountant mate i.e., I play with excel and make bar charts and waterfall charts all day.

 

Ah, you had to spoil my joke. May ten thousand bugs infest your Tableau. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

6 minutes ago, A Red said:

I see the same for Jews and Muslims. Hatton would not have dared tweeting about Muslims with humanity speaking out against Saudi

I've no idea what he would and wouldn't have done. But the situations are slightly different anyway. 

[A Red]

1 minute ago, Hank Moody said:

I've no idea what he would and wouldn't have done. But the situations are slightly different anyway. 

Ok, he would probably have recognised one as being anti islamic and the other as being fair enough. Whether he intended to be anti-semitic is irrelevant, in my opinion

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, A Red said:

Ok, he would probably have recognised one as being anti islamic and the other as being fair enough. Whether he intended to be anti-semitic is irrelevant, in my opinion

Yeah, I've no idea what he would have done. All I can say is what I think of what actually happened, and I think it's not antisemitism and it's not holding people responsible for something they've not done. I guess, well, we just disagree. 

 

What I will say is, if that's what antisemitism is - a tweet saying he thinks more Jews should speak out - then it's watered down to the point where it's almost indistinguishable from water. Antisemitism is vile, making a tweet saying you think somebody should say something... well, just isn't. 

[magicrat]

To my mind why the fuck do Labour need to pontificate about Israel ? I think the Palestinians get a raw dead but is it not obvious what needs attention is getting rid of the Tories. They are just making rod for their own backs

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, magicrat said:

To my mind why the fuck do Labour need to pontificate about Israel ? I think the Palestinians get a raw dead but is it not obvious what needs attention is getting rid of the Tories. They are just making rod for their own backs

To be honest, they're not really pontificating about Israel. It's not like it's an important policy agenda or anything. 

[magicrat]

1 minute ago, Hank Moody said:

To be honest, they're not really pontificating about Israel. It's not like it's an important policy agenda or anything. 

They should have canned the whole thing years ago regrettably

[A Red]

Just now, Hank Moody said:

Yeah, I've no idea what he would have done. All I can say is what I think of what actually happened, and I think it's not antisemitism and it's not holding people responsible for something they've not done. I guess, well, we just disagree.

 

 

[Jose Jones]

8 minutes ago, magicrat said:

To my mind why the fuck do Labour need to pontificate about Israel ? I think the Palestinians get a raw dead but is it not obvious what needs attention is getting rid of the Tories. They are just making rod for their own backs

Excellent Freudian auto-correct there.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, magicrat said:

They should have canned the whole thing years ago regrettably

What do you mean? Labour aren't really doing anything with Israel. Quite a few MPs of Labour Friends of Israel. There are some who pick up the typical leftwing agenda of sticking up for the Palestinians. That's about it. 

[magicrat]

3 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

What do you mean? Labour aren't really doing anything with Israel. Quite a few MPs of Labour Friends of Israel. There are some who pick up the typical leftwing agenda of sticking up for the Palestinians. That's about it. 

How then is now widely perceived that Labour have sided with the Palestinians against Israel which is now blown up in a full scale antisemitic shit storm ?  I am not saying it's correct but I'm at a loss as to how they let things get so bad in respect to a non core issue. Media doesn't help but it should have never got to this point. 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

11 minutes ago, magicrat said:

How then is now widely perceived that Labour have sided with the Palestinians against Israel

Dunno. Lies? 

[aRdja]

 

1 hour ago, A Red said:

Calling for Muslims to do more about Saudi Arabia, for example, is anti-islam.

How so? I for one would love to see muslims of Saudi Arabia renounce their backward country, and muslims around the world to stop pouring money into the country every year.