Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Numero Veinticinco]

I, for one, am really enjoying the high-brow back and forth between Nelly and Rico. I call it the 'No, you're the racist' wars of 2019. 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

10 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Some deal with the Devil - You get to keep your looks, but check the smallprint... you must live as a Bluenose!

 

MWAAHAAHAAHAAHAAAA!

Maybe he was the originator of that joke about the man getting three wishes from a genie; on his third he wishes for immortality, and the genie says "You can't wish to live forever". The man then says OK he wants to die when Everton win the league, and the genie replies "You sneaky cunt."

[The Guest]

It’s just so short sighted go any non-right wing intelligent person to want Corbyn out.  The idea that Labour need some sort of Alastair Campbell type cunt in the background that will sort it all the PR is absolute fantasy land.  The reason Blair and Campbell and all them other cunts got in power and stayed in power is because of Murdoch and the media and the fact they were right wing.  They worked with Murdoch and the right wing press to bully the centre and left wing MP’s to bring all the privatisation and deregulation in.  They weren’t controlling the media and the PR it was the other way around.

 

It all comes down to policy.  If you put forward left wing policies then it’s going to be detrimental to the elite and they’re not going to like it.  It doesn’t matter who it is they’re going to be smeared endlessly.  What’s your other option then?  Go with a new Tony Blair and you will get in power?  Who’s to say that would work now or even guarantee a win.  The elite got greedy and slaughtered Brown and Miliband.  What makes it even worse is that it’s meant an even further rightwing Conservative party.  This idea that you’re better off going with a centrist (in reality an economically right wing person) as leader of the left wing choice has been catastrophic for the country.

 

When the rightwing economics failed and has also left thousands of young people on the scrap heap with tens of thousands of student debt (that eventually will have to be paid off by future generations through taxation anyway) in low paid jobs the electorate had nowhere to go.  At first they fell for the yellow tories lies about abolishing tuition fees and offering more left choice than labour and subsequently voted in a majority tory govt when that never happened.  Without a genuine leftwing option the left will get blamed for right wing policy which then leads to the tories getting in and implementing even further right wing policies.  If this shit carries on I don’t expect an NHS when I’m eventually old enough to need it.

 

Whinge as much as you want about Corbyn or what the electorate and media think about Corbyn but the most important thing he is doing is democratising the party.  Making policiticians actually accountable is the only way forward.  If labour can make their MP’s accountable by showing they can’t just sit there in safe seats doing whatever they want because they will get voted in again anyway then it will turn voters back on and it will have even more people joining the party because they can then actually have an opinion that matters.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Stopped reading at ‘the fact they were right wing’. Sorry mate. Can’t do it. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

[magicrat]

34 minutes ago, The Guest said:

 

Whinge as much as you want about Corbyn or what the electorate and media think about Corbyn but the most important thing he is doing is democratising the party.  Making policiticians actually accountable is the only way forward.  If labour can make their MP’s accountable by showing they can’t just sit there in safe seats doing whatever they want because they will get voted in again anyway then it will turn voters back on and it will have even more people joining the party because they can then actually have an opinion that matters.

You make it sound so simple when it is far from it. Are MP's solely responsible to the party members and should at all times stick to the script or be booted out ?  What about the wider electorate who vote for Labour but are not members ? Do their priorities not count. What about the 70 odd percent of the electorate that vote for other parties or not vote at all. Do they have no say in what is in the best interest of the country under a Labour Government ? 

There is no easy answer which is why MP's are supposed to act represent their constituents and the National interest. A winner take all and fuck everyone else is never going to work and bring about a coherent country which is why this binary Brexit nonsense is so toxic.

[Strontium]

12 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

Stopped reading at ‘the fact they were right wing’. Sorry mate. Can’t do it. 

 

This is the new paradigm, where 1990s Labour was right wing, and communists like Bastani and Sarkar are centre-left.

[deiseach]

1 hour ago, Nelly-Torres said:

And it's amazing that people swallow it all up, a narrative being ran by and for people who are not actually trying to avoid paying the legal amount of tax that they should (or any increase on the legal tax rate), but who instead want to prevent themselves from having to pay a penny more than the much reduced tax sums that they currently pay. 

 

These fuckers must laugh themselves to sleep at night at the gullibility of the electorate. 

(h/t)

[AngryOfTuebrook]

6 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

This is the new paradigm, where 1990s Labour was right wing, and communists like Bastani and Sarkar are centre-left.

Does anyone use the word "centre" in connection with either of those two?

[Jairzinho]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

Does anyone use the word "centre" in connection with either of those two?

No-one. It's a new paradigm. Stronts invented it about ten minutes ago.

[Rico1304]

43 minutes ago, magicrat said:

You make it sound so simple when it is far from it. Are MP's solely responsible to the party members and should at all times stick to the script or be booted out ?  What about the wider electorate who vote for Labour but are not members ? Do their priorities not count. What about the 70 odd percent of the electorate that vote for other parties or not vote at all. Do they have no say in what is in the best interest of the country under a Labour Government ? 

There is no easy answer which is why MP's are supposed to act represent their constituents and the National interest. A winner take all and fuck everyone else is never going to work and bring about a coherent country which is why this binary Brexit nonsense is so toxic.

What about their constituents who didn’t vote for them - usually the majority. 

[The Guest]

59 minutes ago, magicrat said:

You make it sound so simple when it is far from it. Are MP's solely responsible to the party members and should at all times stick to the script or be booted out ?  What about the wider electorate who vote for Labour but are not members ? Do their priorities not count. What about the 70 odd percent of the electorate that vote for other parties or not vote at all. Do they have no say in what is in the best interest of the country under a Labour Government ? 

There is no easy answer which is why MP's are supposed to act represent their constituents and the National interest. A winner take all and fuck everyone else is never going to work and bring about a coherent country which is why this binary Brexit nonsense is so toxic.

The way our democracy is set up at the moment it is the only way to make them accountable.  If the members can’t make them accountable then they can get away with doing whatever they want which is exactly what’s been happening for years.

 

The elite that control both the party’s have basically got a factory producing these fucking suits.  If the electorate lashed out and votes one of them out it doesn’t matter the other side win with one they prepared earlier.  The ousted suit gets a job in some think tank or on the board of some company that probably has public contracts and is replaced by some ready made suit that’s come straight off the production line.  The faces might change but the policies never change.

 

Reselection and deselection should absolutely be part and parcel of being an MP.  We only have two credible party’s so you generally have to pick one of those and if you’re bothered enough about politics you should be able to join that party and have your say on whether they should be the candidate or not.  If there’s enough of you in your electorate who think that way then you should be able to replace them with someone more suitable.  I don’t think anybody expects their MP to completely mirror their views and I doubt there would be deselections over minor issues.

 

Your answer seems to be that there’s loads of people who aren’t labour members so we should just let the MPs do what they want and the only time we can make them accountable is every 5 years when we’ve got a choice of them or a Tory.  You need to wake up because it’s not working.

[magicrat]

26 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

What about their constituents who didn’t vote for them - usually the majority. 

I have heard countless acceptance speeches on election nights where the winner pledges to represent all constituents. Of course it's largely bullshit but nevertheless I would argue it's what they are supposed to do. 

[The Guest]

1 hour ago, Hank Moody said:

Stopped reading at ‘the fact they were right wing’. Sorry mate. Can’t do it. 

It’s probably why you’re still parroting the same nonsense that’s been debunked in this thread countless times.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, The Guest said:

It’s probably why you’re still parroting the same nonsense that’s been debunked in this thread countless times.

Probably mate, yeah. 

[magicrat]

1 minute ago, The Guest said:

The way our democracy is set up at the moment it is the only way to make them accountable.  If the members can’t make them accountable then they can get away with doing whatever they want which is exactly what’s been happening for years.

 

The elite that control both the party’s have basically got a factory producing these fucking suits.  If the electorate lashed out and votes one of them out it doesn’t matter the other side win with one they prepared earlier.  The ousted suit gets a job in some think tank or on the board of some company that probably has public contracts and is replaced by some ready made suit that’s come straight off the production line.  The faces might change but the policies never change.

 

Reselection and deselection should absolutely be part and parcel of being an MP.  We only have two credible party’s so you generally have to pick one of those and if you’re bothered enough about politics you should be able to join that party and have your say on whether they should be the candidate or not.  If there’s enough of you in your electorate who think that way then you should be able to replace them with someone more suitable.  I don’t think anybody expects their MP to completely mirror their views and I doubt there would be deselections over minor issues.

 

Your answer seems to be that there’s loads of people who aren’t labour members so we should just let the MPs do what they want and the only time we can make them accountable is every 5 years when we’ve got a choice of them or a Tory.  You need to wake up because it’s not working.

MP's are arguably accountable at the next election but a Political party is not a private members club where decisions made by members only affect members. The party members making the policy are a tiny minority compared with the total electorate. Take the last election where it's incontrovertible that millions of remainers voted Labour in the expectation that they would stand up to the Tories and not allow a hard Brexit.  Should they be ignored by the party ?  This is a balance where dissent is part and parcel of MP's remit. Anyway there is no easy answer as I say quite a lot these days but I am damn sure Labour wont get elected the way it's heading and given the fucking state of the Tories that beggars belief.  

[Sugar Ape]

What a strange line of attack. 

 

 

[The Guest]

10 minutes ago, magicrat said:

MP's are arguably accountable at the next election but a Political party is not a private members club where decisions made by members only affect members. The party members making the policy are a tiny minority compared with the total electorate. Take the last election where it's incontrovertible that millions of remainers voted Labour in the expectation that they would stand up to the Tories and not allow a hard Brexit.  Should they be ignored by the party ?  This is a balance where dissent is part and parcel of MP's remit. Anyway there is no easy answer as I say quite a lot these days but I am damn sure Labour wont get elected the way it's heading and given the fucking state of the Tories that beggars belief.  

 

What are you on about?  At the last election Labour campaigned saying they would take us out of the single market and end freedom of movement.  They’ve stood up to the tories to try and stop a no deal but at the end of the day they’re powerless if Theresa May wants to run the clock down.

 

You also talk as if the electorate are the policy makers that should not be restricted by the members of a political party?  It’s fucking comical.  You are surely not that thick.  The policy of both party’s has been dictated by elite men in suits behind the scenes for a long time.  If the electorate made the policy we wouldn’t be sitting here with a mess of a rail service, PFI in the NHS, ridiculous tuition fees, privatised water etc the list is fucking endless.

 

What I want is the Labour Party to offer alternatives to right wing choices.  The way to do that is to take the control away from the elite men in suits.  Get those policies in a manifesto and try to get them voted in.  If the electorate votes the other way then they can live with the choice they’ve made until the next election but it can’t be blamed on the left because it’s not the left wing option.

 

What loads of liberal types seem to want is labour to basically do what the tories do but do it with a smile or bankrupt the country by paying for things it can’t afford because they won’t put the taxes up

[SasaS]

10 minutes ago, The Guest said:

•  

•  

Posted 4 minutes ago

33 minutes ago, magicrat said:

MP's are arguably accountable at the next election but a Political party is not a private members club where decisions made by members only affect members. The party members making the policy are a tiny minority compared with the total electorate. Take the last election where it's incontrovertible that millions of remainers voted Labour in the expectation that they would stand up to the Tories and not allow a hard Brexit.  Should they be ignored by the party ?  This is a balance where dissent is part and parcel of MP's remit. Anyway there is no easy answer as I say quite a lot these days but I am damn sure Labour wont get elected the way it's heading and given the fucking state of the Tories that beggars belief.  

Read more  

 

What I want is the Labour Party to offer alternatives to right wing choices.  The way to do that is to take the control away from the elite men in suits.  Get those policies in a manifesto and try to get them voted in.  If the electorate votes the other way then they can live with the choice they’ve made until the next election but it can’t be blamed on the left because it’s not the left wing option.

 

 

Surely at least some of them dress more casually?

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Does anyone use the word "centre" in connection with either of those two?

 

Yes, Bastani used it just yesterday.

[Rico1304]

Looks like Deggsy has been doing his homework.  I mean, why wouldn’t it occur to anyone on the committee to search his twitter timeline. 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Looks like Deggsy has been doing his homework.  I mean, why wouldn’t it occur to anyone on the committee to search his twitter timeline. 

 

 

What’s wrong with what he said? 

[SasaS]

2 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

What’s wrong with what he said? 

 

Replace Jewish people with Muslims and Israel with the jihadi organization of your choice.

[Jairzinho]

Just now, SasaS said:

 

Replace Jewish people with Muslims and Israel with the jihadi organization of your choice.

Something Muslims are told, without a single shred of controversy, every single time anyone is killed by a Muslim.

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

Replace Jewish people with Muslims and Israel with the jihadi organization of your choice.

So, make it the same as the thing everybody said all the time? More Muslims should speak out against jihadist organisations. More Jews should speak out against the crimes of Israel. It doesn't mean they're responsible for them, it means they have more sway and more credibility when doing so.