Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Moo]

She's praising the Islamic Revolution in Iran! You might as well have someone praising the Third Reich.

Things don't need to be so black and white. While I don't know what this woman has said about the Revolution or her views on terrorism, the Iranians I know have too praised the Revolution, or aspects of it, but are as far away from extremists as you can get.

[aRdja]

What the mainstream media don’t want you to read about in relation to the IHRA definition debate... a touch long bit very interesting.

 

https://www.facebook.com/roger.silverman.39/posts/10155604354830598?__xts__

 

I have sent the following submission to the Labour Party's NEC in preparation for its discussion on the IHRA definition of ant-Semitism.

* * * *

I would like to submit the following points to the NEC before it takes a decision on its definition of anti-Semitism.

I have some credentials on this question. My grandparents were penniless refugees from pogroms in the Tsarist Russian empire, driven from their homes by riots, slaughter and arson. Soon afterwards, my maternal grandfather was the victim of an anti-Semitic murder in Liverpool.

My father Sydney Silverman was a left Labour MP for 33 years until his death, personally responsible for introducing the historic private member’s bill which abolished capital punishment. At the time of the holocaust, he was a Zionist. In 1940 he was elected chair of the British section of the World Jewish Congress, and in this capacity he was among the first to warn the world about Hitler's "final solution of the Jewish question" and to mount a desperate worldwide campaign to save European Jewry from genocide. Three days after my birth, he visited the newly liberated Buchenwald and Belsen Nazi concentration camps as a member of a parliamentary delegation. He supported the establishment of a Jewish state as a homeland for displaced holocaust survivors, but he was later to fiercely oppose Israeli participation in the Suez war in 1956, and died in 1968 outraged at the Israeli occupation of the West Bank after the 1967 war.

In my early teens, as well as a member of the Young Socialists I was also a member of Hashomer Hatzair, a socialist Zionist youth organization. I joined the Labour Party at the age of 15 and have been a member all my life, with the exception of the long "New Labour" years. I have encountered occasional manifestations of anti-Semitism in my life, but never within the Labour Party.

The charge that the Labour Party and specifically Jeremy Corbyn are soft on anti-Semitism is outrageous. It is the latest and most bizarre of a series of monstrous smears by the right-wing establishment. If we were to believe them, then Corbyn is somehow simultaneously a pacifist, a terrorist, a Stalinist and a Czech spy. Now this lifelong campaigner against racism is branded an anti-Semite too. One wonders when he has the time to tend his allotment.

I wouldn’t blame the Israeli diplomatic service for promoting such accusations; it is their job to use every means at their disposal to avoid the election of a British government sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. In this case the smear campaign has been taken up by the British establishment, and unfortunately endorsed by that wing of the Parliamentary Labour Party opposed to Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, because of the failure of its earlier palpable slanders.

This campaign is even dirtier than the "Zinioviev letter" faked by MI5 to damage Labour in the general election of 1923, or than Churchill's lie in 1945 that if Labour won the election, it would establish a Gestapo police state. It is of course the Tory party that is riddled with racism. It was a Tory government which introduced the 1905 Aliens Act that blocked Jewish emigration from the East European pogroms, and it was a Tory MP who founded the Right Club in the 1930s to "expose the activities of organised Jewry". British immigration policy throughout the Nazi period was designed to keep out at least ten times as many Jews as it allowed in. During that period, it was the Daily Express which carried the infamous headline "JEWS DECLARE WAR ON GERMANY" and the Daily Mail which screamed "HURRAH FOR THE BLACKSHIRTS!". Churchill personally made repeated racist comments against Jews.

Only three years ago, it was the Mail which made a thinly veiled anti-Semitic attack on Ed Miliband’s father, while the Sun published an unflattering picture of Ed Miliband eating a bacon sandwich - another anti-Semitic jibe.

No party has done more to resist all forms of racism than Labour. It is significant that no other parties have come under any similar pressure to adopt any such charter as the IHRA document.

I believe that the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism is deeply flawed. It is clearly designed to protect the Israeli state from legitimate criticism. It is also inconsistent. For instance, it argues that it's anti-Semitic to "deny the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". In that case, how then can it also be anti-Semitic to "accuse Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel than to the interests of their own nations"? Either Israel is a homeland for Jews worldwide, in which case it has a right to expect their loyalty, or Jews have an obligation to give prior loyalty to the country in which they live. The IHRA apparently wants it both ways.

I should add that I reject any comparison of such crimes as the current atrocities in Gaza to those of the Nazis as grossly disproportionate and provocative. By implication it mitigates the crimes of imperialism as a whole. Israel is not engaged in systematic genocide: it is not rounding up Palestinians, cramming them into concentration camps and gassing them by the thousands. It is practising the standard brutal murderous repression of all imperialist powers, regional or global. The hands of American imperialism in Latin America and South-East Asia, or of French imperialism in North Africa, or of Belgian imperialism in the Congo, or of the South African apartheid state at Sharpeville, are also dripping with blood. British imperialism also has on its hands the deaths of hundreds of peaceful demonstrators mown down in the Amritsar massacre, systematic torture and mutilation in Kenya’s Hola death camp, and the gunning down of peaceful demonstrators in Northern Ireland on Bloody Sunday. There is no need to invoke the Nazis: it's quite enough condemn Israel for behaving like the British.

I urge the NEC to stand by its current definition of anti-Semitism and to resist the caterwauling of proven racists to adopt a definition which would brand as anti-Semites legitimate critics of Israeli government policy. It is time to fight back against the establishment’s lies.

Roger Silverman

West Ham Labour Party

[Numero Veinticinco]

She's praising the Islamic Revolution in Iran! You might as well have someone praising the Third Reich.

The double standards are outrageous. But even then, you still didn’t answer what threat she poses to Jews.

[Anubis]

Is that Luke "we lost all 9 places but...but...it's not that bad...just look at the gap.. it's getting smaller" Akehurst?

 

Steve Waddicor

@swaddicor

·

5h

Replying to

@lukeakehurst

No that’s wrong. In 2016, the Momentum slate got 57% more votes than the Labour First slate. This year the Momentum slate got 88% more votes than the Labour First slate. The gap is increasing. Momentum's lead is getting bigger.

 

And my personal favourite....

 

Jimmy Sands

@JimmyHSands

·

11h

Replying to

@lukeakehurst

I appreciate your efforts Luke but, and I mean this in a nice way, you sound like Mourinho after the Spurs game.

[Jairzinho]

The twitter pages of John Rentoul, Progress, etc making for some hilarious reading today.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Check out @SocialistMemes’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/SocialistMemes/status/1036580927739244545?s=09

[AngryOfTuebrook]

She's praising the Islamic Revolution in Iran! You might as well have someone praising the Third Reich.

Three things.

 

1. We're still waiting for for evidence of this.

 

2. The Iranian regime, however oppressive, sexist, homophobic and anti-Semitic it may be, is not comparable to the Third Reich. This may have already been mentioned somewhere, but it's wrong to throw those comparisons around cheaply.

 

3. Celebrating the founding of a republic doesn’t necessarily entail defending every atrocity carried out in the lifetime of that republic. To suggest it does would be as preposterous as claiming that just because a person defends Israel as "the only democracy in the region" they must also be happy to see children on a beach being shelled by a warship.

[Strontium]

Three things.

 

1. We're still waiting for for evidence of this.

 

2. The Iranian regime, however oppressive, sexist, homophobic and anti-Semitic it may be, is not comparable to the Third Reich. This may have already been mentioned somewhere, but it's wrong to throw those comparisons around cheaply.

 

3. Celebrating the founding of a republic doesn’t necessarily entail defending every atrocity carried out in the lifetime of that republic. To suggest it does would be as preposterous as claiming that just because a person defends Israel as "the only democracy in the region" they must also be happy to see children on a beach being shelled by a warship.

NV posted the video, so I don't know what further evidence I can provide.

 

Yes, if you are a homosexual being tortured and executed, the Iranan government does look a lot like Nazis. Thank goodness we have a solid presence in the region keeping them from going full Hitler.

 

I don't think the accidental killing of children on a beach can be compared with the vicious way Iran treats its own people, and the Iranian Revolution is not something to be celebrated, but something to be scorned.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Stronts, by the standards you set out you’re an apologist, supporter, and promoter for murder, collective punishment, state terrorism, apartheid, and you’re a Jewish extremist suprematist racist.

[Strontium]

Stronts, by the standards you set out you’re an apologist, supporter, and promoter for murder, collective punishment, state terrorism, apartheid, and you’re a Jewish extremist suprematist racist.

False, because I don't think Iran has no right to exist. I just dislike its regime, same as I dislike Netanyahu's regime.

[Numero Veinticinco]

False, because I don't think Iran has no right to exist. I just dislike its regime, same as I dislike Netanyahu's regime.

No, it’s not false and it’s not based on whether or not you think they have a right to exist. I do think, when it comes to Israel, you are a bad hypocrite with obvious double standards.

 

In fact, I elected not to post the reply I write to your, quite frankly disgusting, post and some of the disgusting deflections you’ve posted recently, because the level of hypocrisy shown leads to an obvious conclusion. Your use of logical fallacies to deflect from the crimes of Israel make it very difficult not to call you out in a way that means we could probably never get past it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

NV posted the video, so I don't know what further evidence I can provide.

 

Yes, if you are a homosexual being tortured and executed, the Iranan government does look a lot like Nazis. Thank goodness we have a solid presence in the region keeping them from going full Hitler.

 

I don't think the accidental killing of children on a beach can be compared with the vicious way Iran treats its own people, and the Iranian Revolution is not something to be celebrated, but something to be scorned.

The video didn't show her praising anything. In fact, she barely mentioned Iran - and she certainly said nothing anti-Semitic.

 

You, on the other hand, seem happy to justify all of Israe's "accidental" aerial and naval bombardment, sniper fire, etc. Apparently, that sort of conduct is permissible in your definition of democracy.

[Strontium]

No, it’s not false and it’s not based on whether or not you think they have a right to exist. I do think, when it comes to Israel, you are a bad hypocrite with obvious double standards.

 

In fact, I elected not to post the reply I write to your, quite frankly disgusting, post and some of the disgusting deflections you’ve posted recently, because the level of hypocrisy shown leads to an obvious conclusion. Your use of logical fallacies to deflect from the crimes of Israel make it very difficult not to call you out in a way that means we could probably never get past it.

You can't get past the fact that I freely criticise Israel's behaviour while defending its right to exist. And if Israel starts executing gays, treating women as second class citizens etc then I'll be the first to criticise them. That's not a double standard, it's the exact same standard.

 

But this isn't a thread about me or Israel, it's about the Labour leader and the people he's attracting to the party, which now apparently includes supporters of a regime that executes socalists and suppresses trade unions. Odd stance for a democratic socialist to take, I would have thought.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Iran's human rights record is shocking. But, at least it affords people with a trial before executing them. Unlike some democratic states in the region.

[Section_31]

Iran's human rights record is shocking. But, at least it affords people with a trial before executing them. Unlike some democratic states in the region.

Iran is supposed to be relatively liberal isn't it compared to a lot of Muslim countries? They have democratic elections for a start.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Iran is supposed to be relatively liberal isn't it compared to a lot of Muslim countries? They have democratic elections for a start.

The theocratic leaders aren't. Although there's anecdotal claims that it's less harsh than is made out, with a lot of stuff like homosexuality, adultery and alcohol consumption being tolerated provided it's done behind closed doors.

 

After all the stuff with Ahmadinejad and Mousavi, I wouldn't go as far as to call their elections "democratic."

 

A lot of zionists seem to have a hard on for Iran though. There's counter claims that they've dramatically misinterpreted Ahmadinejad's alleged claim of wanting to wipe Iran from the map. And there's Benji the war criminal's cartoon drawing of a bomb with a red line drawn on it and his wall of CD's.

 

I think it's a fascinating country if you look beyond the loons at the top. Largely very friendly and hospitable people, amazing history and culture, boss food. And, some of the women!

 

A friend of mine has been and he loved it.

[Numero Veinticinco]

You can't get past the fact that I freely criticise Israel's behaviour while defending its right to exist.

It has nothing - NOTHING - to do with you defending its right to exist. I too believe Israel has a right to exist. If you truly believe that you freely criticise Israel's behaviour, you're more bent out of shape on this subject than I thought. You don't freely criticise them, you deflect from their horrible crimes. You frame them, not as a country who carries out collective punishment, oversees an apartheid state, murders innocent armed women and children, but as 'the only democracy in the middle east'. Your use of the exclusion fallacy is obvious and obtuse. You have actually referred to the thread pointing out their murder of women, children, and innocence unarmed civilians as a stupid thread for unjust criticism. Anything outside of this strange deflective facade has to be dragged out of you. Even then, it's generally a bland, cookie-cutter message saying you don't support it. A generic rebuttal, little more.

 

You call the Labour Party 'the illegal war and torture party'. You are outraged by Corbyn having a two hour seminar with people who have been in and around British media and government for years, mentioning it every time you get a chance, saying he supports and promotes terrorists. You have shown righteous indignation towards Corbyn for saying 'English Irony' instead of 'Irony' to a few Zionists, foaming at the saying he's an antisemite. You refer to him as such ever chance you get. You are apoplectic with rage any time a catholic or Muslim does something, condemning the entire religion, you have called a woman an Islamic Extremist with no evidence.

 

Where's the same treatment referring to Israel by their crimes? You do not have this response to Israel. You don't refer to them by exclusively by their flaws, you do the opposite; you use exclusion fallacy to refer to them only by perceived virtues. How many times have you, out of nowhere, said 'the apartheid and collective punishment state are at it again'. Pull the other one. As I said previously, you occasionally have a generic response dragged out of you. Rarely, but it has happened. Then it's forgotten and you are back to deflection, dismissal, and distraction. This is a double standard. Actually, I think it's disgraceful and makes all the words you use to describe yourself sound empty and hollow. You have to do it yourself because your actions haven't convinced anybody else of their truthfulness, so they don't do it for you. You beat your own drum to drown out the sound of criticism. As you said about Corbyn, him saying he is against antisemitism isn't enough; well, neither are your self-proclamations. Your actions tell a different story. A story of support, and of deflection and dismissal of criticism.

 

And if Israel starts executing gays, treating women as second class citizens etc then I'll be the first to criticise them. That's not a double standard, it's the exact same standard.

Israel treat women as second class citizens, but not because they're women; they care about them being Arabs more than them being women. Israel doesn't execute gays, but only because they don't stop to ask whilst doing the execution. They don't care if they're gay, straight, or like a finger in the ass; they care if you're a Palestinian. They don't care if your kids are gay when threatening kill them if you throw stones; they care that they're not Jews. They treat ALL arabs inside their borders as second class citizens, and outside of their borders they are often treated as targets. You'd never be first to criticise Israel. That's an outright lie. You might have your cookie-cutter 'I don't support this' response ready at hand, but in the decade I've been reading what you've written there's no case where you're the first in the door to rip Israel a new one. In fact, you do everything you can to protect it from criticism, with tu quoque responses about the Muslim world. It's a bad double standard when compared with other nations.

 

But this isn't a thread about me or Israel, it's about the Labour leader and the people he's attracting to the party, which now apparently includes supporters of a regime that executes socalists and suppresses trade unions. Odd stance for a democratic socialist to take, I would have thought.

I'm much more concerned with what she does or doesn't believe, rather than some trumped up nonsense you've accused her of. But you're right, it's not about you or Israel. I only brought up Israel because your standard required for evidence would lead you down a dark path. You absolutely have a different standard for those you support and those you oppose. If you see the need to respond to the part of this is about Israel or you, feel free to do it in the other thread.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Willsman might be getting kicked off the NEC, according to a few whispers.

 

It looks like the IHRA definition and all examples will be adopted. A mildly disappointing act of appeasement, particularly as the Code of Conduct was a sufficient instrument to deal with any antisemitism complaints.

 

It'll be intetesting to see the extent that the mooted "free speech" caveat goes to. You'd hope it's strong enough to prevent legitimate criticism of Israel being falsely classed as antisemitism. Also, the reaction to the caveat will be interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if we got a few more Frank Field style flounces. Probably from Mann, Hodge and Berger.

[sir roger]

Reports that the head of the Met Police , Cressida Dick , is considering action on allegations of anti-semitism in the Labour party from a leaked document sent to her.

 

Just Labour allegations you understand , as there are no anti-semites outside the Labour party, and the police are clearly politically neutral.

[Strontium]

Reports that the head of the Met Police , Cressida Dick , is considering action on allegations of anti-semitism in the Labour party from a leaked document sent to her.

 

Just Labour allegations you understand , as there are no anti-semites outside the Labour party, and the police are clearly politically neutral.

Oh look, more whataboutery.

 

The file leaked to LBC contains 45 instances of antisemitism, four of which warrant investigation as potential hate crimes, and a further 17 potential hate incidents, which could also turn out to be crimes after investigation.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It will be interesting to see what the new Code of Conduct looks like, given that the original NEC proposal contained the full IHRA Working Definition, ten and a half out of the IHRA's 11 examples plus a load more good stuff.

 

If they just throw that out and replace it with a half-arsed copy and paste of a document that isn't intended to be a Code of Conduct (as some people seem to be advocating) that will weaken the party's ability to fight anti-Semitism.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Oh look, more whataboutery.

 

The file leaked to LBC contains 45 instances of antisemitism, four of which warrant investigation as potential hate crimes, and a further 17 potential hate incidents, which could also turn out to be crimes after investigation.

How is it "whataboutery"?

 

If you're sincere about fighting anti-Semitism, then you'll investigate it in all parties.

[Strontium]

How is it "whataboutery"?

 

If you're sincere about fighting anti-Semitism, then you'll investigate it in all parties.

There's nothing stopping anyone from reporting any in other parties too. The fact that it isn't as widely reported in other parties does not indicate some conspiracy to discredit Labour, nor is it relevant to what happens in the Labour Party.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Reports that the head of the Met Police , Cressida Dick , is considering action on allegations of anti-semitism in the Labour party from a leaked document sent to her.

 

Just Labour allegations you understand , as there are no anti-semites outside the Labour party, and the police are clearly politically neutral.

Some of the stuff said is fairly horrid though. I'd have no issue with the authorities investigating these incidents. Although, some of them appear to be unsubstantiated "he called me this" allegations. While investigation is welcome, you'd imagine that the usual legal processes and rules of evidence will be applied. If so, it'd be doubtful a case based on one person's word against another would progress to charge.

 

While one instance of real antisemitism is one too many, it's good to see that the relatively small numbers involved serve to refute the overly dramatic claims that there is "severe and widespread antisemitism" in the party.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Missing the point somewhat. She has been elected numerous times to the seat. The idea that she has to embody the lowest common denominator of individual living within the area seems utterly ludicrous.

How often has Labour lost the Wavertree seat on the last 50 years?