Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[Dr Nowt]

this will hurry Corbyn out of the door. End of June?

Certainly likely to put paid to any hopes of him hanging on until after the September annual conference, and a party rules change giving a more like-minded successor the best chance to stand via the 'McDonnell amendment'. New party leader and direction established before then is a fair bet.

 

Always thought she was just waiting for Article 50 to be triggered, as until then Labour/Lib Dems/Greens could have run on a ticket of offering a vote to reverse Brexit, which though likely not enough to win power would still have been a huge vote winner and mitigated the landslide majority they're about to gain.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I reckon the decision is also due to the CPS considering charges against certain Tory politicians for electoral fraud. If any case comes it won't be done and dusted before the GE takes place, the Tories will hope/think(probably get a larger majority to cope with certain MP's losing their seats. If this had all happened without a GE they could easily have lost their slim working majority. 

[Brownie]

I personally think that the election fraud thing has no bearing at all and would make no difference. People will shrug it off and say, "okay so they spent a couple of bob more than they should, it's not a hangable offence", etc.

[Jairzinho]

I personally think that the election fraud thing has no bearing at all and would make no difference. People will shrug it off and say, "okay so they spent a couple of bob more than they should, it's not a hangable offence", etc.

 

Agreed. People don't care. 

[Guest Pistonbroke]

I suppose they are more bothered about Fake/Bent/Benefit Britain type programmes where they show dirty cheating foreigners in general. Who the fuck are they going to blame when Brexit has run its course? Because you can bet your arse the wankers will be crying about things if they themselves are affected. 

[dennis tooth]

I personally think that the election fraud thing has no bearing at all and would make no difference. People will shrug it off and say, "okay so they spent a couple of bob more than they should, it's not a hangable offence", etc.

With a majority of twelve enough to see through brexit provided they behave versus the threat that 20 Tory mp's could lose their seats and go to jail?

[Jairzinho]

I suppose they are more bothered about Fake/Bent/Benefit Britain type programmes where they show dirty cheating foreigners in general. Who the fuck are they going to blame when Brexit has run its course? Because you can bet your arse the wankers will be crying about things if they themselves are affected. 

 

They'll be in a sweatshop, in chains, hoping they can make enough coin to ensure only some of their kids have scurvy.

 

The liberal dream.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

They'll be in a sweatshop, in chains, hoping they can make enough coin to ensure only some of their kids have scurvy.

 

The liberal dream.

 

A Victorian wet dream. 

[DJLJ]

It's not like you have ever been wrong on anything or that you are somewhat skewed in you only occupy the here and now of timespace.

 

There won't be an election any time soon. Theresa May would not call one she wants to oversee us leaving or part one of the process, she is naturally cautious and low self esteem and scared stiff by the prospect and it's very difficult to do that now even if she wanted. Her party has enough obstacles to navigate ahead and the media may not be able to hold public opinion whwre it is now as time under her leadership progresses.

Every desperate attack on corbyn is the oppositte of what many are claiming as it tells you he is a threat and he will continue to build.

Seems any time spin was closer...

[Section_31]

With respect, that's cobblers.

 

Firstly, this notion that the hundreds of thousands of people who joined the Labour Party to support Corbyn are in some way aligned to the various Socialist parties, who never manage to cobble together more than a few thousand members, simply does not add up. They come from the portion of the population that Labour should be trying to woo; those who are so disillusioned with the undemocratic, superficial, Punch-and-Judy, "It's the S*n Wot Won It" neoliberal-consensus shitshow that Westminster politics has become, that a third of people no longer see the point in voting.

 

Secondly, as you yourself admit, the policies promoted by Jeremy Corbyn, far from being extreme Socialist policies that only a hardline extreme leftist would vote for, are centre-left policies, popular even with Conservative voters.

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/10-pledges

This is, by no means an extremist or unpopular platform and there is no excuse for Labour Party members - including MPs! - not to rally round it. So it should be clear that Corbyn is not pandering to "these elements" of red infiltrators.

 

The support Corbyn attracted to the Labour Party is probably best observed in a Momentum-led meeting. Contrary to the propaganda put out by anti-Labour MPs and journalists, these tend to be open, democratic, polite affairs, where nobody mentions glorious days or revolutions or general strikes or even wholesale nationalisations. This is not the 1980s. TUSC, the SWP, etc, are as tiny and insignificant as they were before Corbyn's leadership: they certainly have no clout in the Labour Party.

 

I don't know anyone who claims that all PLP members who are unhappy with Corbyn are "Red Tories". But there is a world of difference between, say, my MP - Stephen Twigg - who supported Owen Smith, but chose, for the good of the Party, not to engage in any shit-slinging during the 2016 leadership campaign and someone like Tom Watson, Angela Eagle, Ruth Smeeth or Peter Mandelson, who are prepared to spread damaging lies against the Labour Party. It really is legitimate to want people to be held accountable for their actions.

 

Finally, we get back to that "Corbyn is not a leader" mantra. I asked Stronts to define and explain it, but he declined. If you can explain exactly what you mean by "a leader" and then explain why Corbyn, uniquely amongst UK political party leaders, doesn't fit that definition, then I'll be all ears. If you can't, then I'd suggest you think twice before repeating it.

By 'not a leader' I'd define it as 'nobody does what he says'.

 

It's not some obscure concept that has to be defined, it either is the case or isn't. Hardly any of his MPs have any respect for him, but his supporters blame the MPs rather than him.

 

It's an age old concept, Captain Cook was a hero and Captain Bligh was thrown overboard. Was the Bounty the Navy's unluckiest ship and staffed exclusively with wannabe Frenchmen? Or were his methods somewhat lacking.

[Denny Crane]

By 'not a leader' I'd define it as 'nobody does what he says'.

It's not some obscure concept that has to be defined, it either is the case or isn't. Hardly any of his MPs have any respect for him, but his supporters blame the MPs rather than him.

It's an age old concept, Captain Cook was a hero and Captain Bligh was thrown overboard. Was the Bounty the Navy's unluckiest ship and staffed exclusively with wannabe Frenchmen? Or were his methods somewhat lacking.

There is a good interview with Corbyn and McDonnell back in April 2015; when they were members of the left platform who opposed austerity in Labour. It's quite clear Corbyn sees the plp as below the party membership in the hierarchy. They know this and have never come to terms with it.

 

Here are some snippets.

 

McDonnell chimed in, "let's be clear, we don't believe in leaders."

 

I thought that was a weird thing to say for someone who ran to be Labour leader twice. Back in 2007 he failed to get enough support, and did the same again in 2010. Corbyn was considering running as his deputy. Sour grapes?

 

McDonnell faltered, slightly, for the first time. "We believe that leaders should be following the masses. We only ran in leadership campaigns to get our ideas across, to use it as a platform."

 

"One of the first things we'd have done, had we won, was transform the idea of leadership within the Labour Party."

 

As election day nears and a party winning a strong majority unlikely, it seems that McDonnell, Corbyn and apparently tens of Labour left-wing MPs may have the chance to challenge their leaders once more. Shouting from the back-benches and voting against your own party takes on a renewed significance when that party has a wafer-thin majority. After the 7th of May, we may be hearing a lot more from the likes of McDonnell and Corbyn

 

Corbyn reckons it's the fault of those who see the party as a purely parliamentary force, rather than one wing of a broader social movement. "The original structure was of trades and labour councils, our intrinsic trade union link on a local level. It's been under attack as long as I've been in, but it's still there."

 

That attack has intensified in recent months. In 2014 Miliband pushed through policy to reduce the power on union's in the party, just last month being accused of an " old fashioned stitch up" by Unite, the country's biggest union, in a row over candidate selection.

 

"The worst period was in 1993. People were so desperate to win after losing a series of elections; they allowed Peter Mandelson to turn the party, or at least some of the party, into New Labour. We never signed up to it, neither did most of our members," insisted Corbyn

 

But it happened. The left of the Labour Party was calling the shots less than it had ever been and Blair, Brown and Mandelson took the helm. Under their leadership, the Labour Party were in Government for 12 years, in which time they refused to reverse the Thatcherite curbs on trade union powers, came up with tuition fees, and introduced substantial privatising reforms in education and health – all anathema to my interviewees.

 

McDonnell's eyes thinned, clearly still pissed off. "We had a coup, by a group of three extremely well funded neoliberals, taking over and party isolating the left as much as they could, driving through policies on behalf of capital."

 

This was back in 1994, over 20 years ago, and yet Corbyn too remembered it with venom. "When John Smith [former Labour leader] died, it was less than six hours later that word was going round that Blair was going to be standing for leader. John's body hadn't even left the hospital."

 

Unsurprisingly, Blair remains one of those still keen to sever the ties with the unions, last month reportedly securing £1 million worth of funding in an attempt to push away from union links. Corbyn wasn't impressed. "Blair should silence himself, and go and play with his money somewhere far away... I've always thought he should face the International Criminal Court for his actions over Iraq."

 

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/jeremy-corbyn-john-mcdonnell-interview-election-2015-labour-party-674

[Denny Crane]

I think to focus on "leadership" as Corbyns problem fails to take into account all the power relationships going on.

[Section_31]

A lot of that is probably true, Blair and Mendelsen are cunts, I've got more time for Brown i don't think he was a bad guy, and I think Corbyn and McDonnell seem largely sound and I agree with a lot of what they say.

 

But i don't agree that Corbyn's failings are the work of everyone else except him, and i don't mean that he's not getting a message out, i mean that he's not actually good at crafting one in the first place.

 

I also don't agree the left had been marginalised to the extent people make out, Ed Miliband had some fairly left wing views, he didn't win because he's an oddball.

 

It's a case of occam's razor isn't it? none of us know the dynamics of what goes on behind the scenes so we have to guess, and either everyone who doesn't rate him is a Blairite cunt (including, erm, Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband, and Owen Jones) or Corbyn is badly lacking in leadership and maybe even political skills in general.

[dennis tooth]

Seems any time spin was closer...

Yeah I got that wrong.

I would refer you to my namesake's pmq comments as to why, the skinner my teef. It's certainly not anything but legal circumstances that's driven her uturn and her safest option has become now a quick election with no tv debates whilst simultaneously trying to do a deal with the cps in the quiet shadows. Thankfully most the media arent reporting on it with the BBC leading the way in coverage ommission.

I'm happy I didn't forsee it as now they can be removed. Corbyn to win. May to go away.

[dennis tooth]

A lot of that is probably true, Blair and Mendelsen are cunts, I've got more time for Brown i don't think he was a bad guy, and I think Corbyn and McDonnell seem largely sound and I agree with a lot of what they say.

 

But i don't agree that Corbyn's failings are the work of everyone else except him, and i don't mean that he's not getting a message out, i mean that he's not actually good at crafting one in the first place.

 

I also don't agree the left had been marginalised to the extent people make out, Ed Miliband had some fairly left wing views, he didn't win because he's an oddball.

 

It's a case of occam's razor isn't it? none of us know the dynamics of what goes on behind the scenes so we have to guess, and either everyone who doesn't rate him is a Blairite cunt (including, erm, Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband, and Owen Jones) or Corbyn is badly lacking in leadership and maybe even political skills in general.

Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband, and Owen Jones)

I wouldn't be taking lessons or giving much credence to those people on what a good leader is mate.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Miliband was made out to be far more of an oddball than he was. The whole bacon butty thing was extraordinary and a low point in media reporting. Out of all leaders the speakers except maybe Clegg I think he was the best he just had a case of the millhouses and that was enough to hang him with.

 

Cameron ate a hotdog with a knife and fork and allegedly put his sausage in a pig.

[dennis tooth]

Milliband was shitter than shit.

Tried to appeal to the centre ground and pleased nobody.

Exactly why corbyn will win the ge

[Boss]

Even as a big Corbyn fan, he's not winning this one in 6 weeks. The only two parties that are going to prosper from this snap election are the Tory party and the Lib Dems. 

[dennis tooth]

All he needs to do is make chicken noises over tv debates at her.

[Hooch]

Anyone follow Dan Hodges on Twitter?

 

If he tweets something in that cocksure tone he loves where he States his opinion as a dramatic fact, please reply with "Huge if true".

 

Long as you don't mind the possibility of being blocked, like.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Why would anyone follow a Blairite who writes for that shit rag? 

[magicrat]

I still cant get my head around why Labour let May call an election entirely on her terms, even stating before the vote she wouldn't engage in any live debates. Never mind turkeys voting for Christmas they seem have basted themselves and jumped in the oven as well

[Barrington Womble]

Even as a big Corbyn fan, he's not winning this one in 6 weeks. The only two parties that are going to prosper from this snap election are the Tory party and the Lib Dems.

As long as they eat up tory seats, that's fine by me. Where we are now, absolutely anything that stops the tories getting majority works for me.

I still cant get my head around why Labour let May call an election entirely on her terms, even stating before the vote she wouldn't engage in any live debates. Never mind turkeys voting for Christmas they seem have basted themselves and jumped in the oven as well

It's fucking mental isn't it. Since brexit, it feels to me like labour have got a secret none of us know about and they're letting May get everything she wants till one day Corbyn jumps out with his secret and says "got you" and smashes the tories. Except that's obviously not going to happen.

[Bobby Hundreds]

At the very least for 6 weeks the rest of Labour could at least unite and show some fight.

[Jairzinho]

At the very least for 6 weeks the rest of Labour could at least unite and show some fight.

 

Most of them will, against Corbyn.