Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Because even a fucking simpleton knew the right wing press and tories would go through his tax return with a fine tooth comb, to find any angle to completely change the topic and deflect any criticism.

 

If the leadership of the Labour Party can't even see that, then not only are they incompetent they're fucking stupid.

Had they gone through it with a fine tooth comb, they would have found it to be complete, accurate and fully compliant.

 

They went off half-cocked and started shouting that there was something missing.  When it became obvious that they had fucked up... they ran with the narrative that Corbyn had fucked up.

 

Seriously - how is anyone supposed to preempt through-the-looking-glass bollocks like that?

[Barrington Womble]

That invites the same question again.

 

What exactly should he do?

 

The (print) media are controlled by a tiny handful of right-wing tax-dodging billionaires. There is no way he could cosy up to them and keep a shred of integrity. They were more than happy to carry out relentless character assassinations even on Kinnock and Milliband - leaders from the right wing of the Labour Party - so they will never give up on attacking someone from the left until they have destroyed him.

 

The only alternative is to work around them, but that would require the entire Labour Party putting their united energies into arguing for Labour policies and working for a Labour Government. Unfortunately, a large number of MPs believe that their main job is to work against the hundreds of thousands of Labour Party members who voted for Jeremy Corbyn. No lie is too despicable; no smear too heinous for these treacherous cunts - and, of course, the media lap it up.

So I do understand and sympathise with your point of view. But every single time it comes back to the same thing for me. Can corbyn form a government in 2020? I think it's as likely as margot robbie letting me lick her minge every night to help her get to sleep. I know the odds are stacked against corbyn and labour, but this is worse than under Michael foot. I want the tories gone as fast as we can get shut. For me they're guaranteed till 2025 and 2020-2025 they'll have a better majority than now if corbyn remains opposition leader. Literally everyone is out to get him including many people he used to regard as allies, he cannot win and in his time as leader seems to have never grown his support, only isolated himself more.

 

Corbyn has convinced the left wing of the labour party. It's easy to preach to the converted. The rest of the country see him as somewhere between a joke and a communist devil. Nobody wins general elections like that. Some of it might not be his fault. Some of it clearly is. Either way, he can't win.

 

Ultimately it comes down to what you want the most. A labour party that can serve the traditional roots of the party and nothing else or one that can form a government. Obviously in eutopia we have a Labour party that does both. But we don't live in eutopia.

[lifetime fan]

Had they gone through it with a fine tooth comb, they would have found it to be complete, accurate and fully compliant.

 

They went off half-cocked and started shouting that there was something missing. When it became obvious that they had fucked up... they ran with the narrative that Corbyn had fucked up.

 

Seriously - how is anyone supposed to preempt through-the-looking-glass bollocks like that?

 

I'm sorry mate but you're an extremely smart cookie.

 

Are you seriously trying to say it wasn't predictable the likes of the fucking rag, hate mail, torygraph and murdochs other papers would go after him?

 

It wasn't predictable they'd twist the agenda, slant the truth and in some cases out right lie?

 

We know exactly what those fucking papers do! We've stated on this very forum for years their modus operandi.

 

The fact the Labour Party aren't, or, can't be prepared for it, shows what a fucking bunch of amateurs they are.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Obviously, one that can form a Government.

 

Nobody from the right wing of the Party will be able to do that in 2020.  However hard they chow down on Murdoch's fetid, dusty old tadger, they will not be allowed to defeat the Tories at the next election.

 

Corbyn attracted hundreds of thousands of previously disinterested/disenfranchised people, by ofering an alternative to the narrow "choice" between New Labour/Lib-Dem/Tory.  The hope of something  genuinely positive and democratic was very attractive.  It could still be very attractive, if the deeply entrenched anti-democratic wing of the PLP didn't keep flinging shit at it.  

 

Labour needed to start fighting the 2020 election campaign the instant the 2015 leadership election was done.  Instead, powerful and influential people in the party sought to keep Labour out of power from the first day of Corbyn's leadership.  The window of opportunity was only ever narrowly open; it is now firmly shut - and it was the cunt wing of the Party who shut it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I'm sorry mate but you're an extremely smart cookie.

 

Are you seriously trying to say it wasn't predictable the likes of the fucking rag, hate mail, torygraph and murdochs other papers would go after him?

 

It wasn't predictable they'd twist the agenda, slant the truth and in some cases out right lie?

 

We know exactly what those fucking papers do! We've stated on this very forum for years their modus operandi.

 

The fact the Labour Party aren't, or, can't be prepared for it, shows what a fucking bunch of amateurs they are.

I've said, time and again, that the only way around the media lies is for the whole Party to act together to get a clear message out.

 

Several hundred of the most powerful people in the Party have chosen to work against the Labour movement for the last 18 months.  There's your problem.

 

When I said "how is anyone supposed to preempt that" I was referring to the specific instance of the current tax thing.  You preempt criticism by making sure that your tax returns are in order.  When your opponents shit on the floor and then tread in it, it's difficult to have an answer when they use that to accuse you of incompetence.

[lifetime fan]

I've said, time and again, that the only way around the media lies is for the whole Party to act together to get a clear message out.

 

Several hundred of the most powerful people in the Party have chosen to work against the Labour movement for the last 18 months. There's your problem.

 

When I said "how is anyone supposed to preempt that" I was referring to the specific instance of the current tax thing. You preempt criticism by making sure that your tax returns are in order. When your opponents shit on the floor and then tread in it, it's difficult to have an answer when they use that to accuse you of incompetence.

I used to agree with your first two paragraphs. Now I don't. Corbyn doesn't fight another Tory government, he guarantees it!

 

As for your last paragraph, on presenting the right wing hateful press owned by tax dodging cunts with an open goal.

 

You'd expect your media spokesman would know your tax returns inside out, know the angles of attack and fire straight back at them.

 

Not come out with "Um, I don't know".

[njackets]

Good watch on Labour and Corybn in you've got a spare hour.

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Why do I get the feeling that that'll be anything but a "good watch"????.....

[Jairzinho]

Not sure I could listen to Owen Jones for an hour.

[Barrington Womble]

Obviously, one that can form a Government.

 

Nobody from the right wing of the Party will be able to do that in 2020. However hard they chow down on Murdoch's fetid, dusty old tadger, they will not be allowed to defeat the Tories at the next election.

 

Corbyn attracted hundreds of thousands of previously disinterested/disenfranchised people, by ofering an alternative to the narrow "choice" between New Labour/Lib-Dem/Tory. The hope of something genuinely positive and democratic was very attractive. It could still be very attractive, if the deeply entrenched anti-democratic wing of the PLP didn't keep flinging shit at it.

 

Labour needed to start fighting the 2020 election campaign the instant the 2015 leadership election was done. Instead, powerful and influential people in the party sought to keep Labour out of power from the first day of Corbyn's leadership. The window of opportunity was only ever narrowly open; it is now firmly shut - and it was the cunt wing of the Party who shut it.

Yes, the PLP are cunts. It changes nothing for me though, corbyn is unelectable. He needed to find a way to get the right wing of the party to work with him and he was unable to do so.

[Spy Bee]

The Labour Party is fucked. The next credible left wing opposition will not be in the form of the Labour Party, and as such there will not be a credible left wing party for a long, long time.

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Basically saying that the Tories will have free rule for ages....yet people voted for Brexit. Excuse me while I laugh at the stupidity. 

[VladimirIlyich]

I used to agree with your first two paragraphs. Now I don't. Corbyn doesn't fight another Tory government, he guarantees it!

 

As for your last paragraph, on presenting the right wing hateful press owned by tax dodging cunts with an open goal.

 

You'd expect your media spokesman would know your tax returns inside out, know the angles of attack and fire straight back at them.

 

Not come out with "Um, I don't know".

I don't agree that Corbyn guarantees another tory government,the PLP and Labour MPs controlled by the same businesses that the tories do. I believe that Corbyn still has strong grass roots party support and the media realise this hence their constant criticism and abuse through the right wing media,even if it is mostly lies. There was a march protesting the cuts in the NHS at the weekend where thousands of people took to the streets to protest and it barely got a look in through the media. This is the kind of thing Corbyn is up against,either ignoring the good things or lying about the ordinary things.

The one thing I do wonder about and I have no idea if Corbyn is for or against it,is an Alliance of parties to oust the tories. This is the best way to kick them out.

[magicrat]

I agree with most of the above with the exception being I don't accept the Tories are unbeatable.

On the issue of Corbyn then its true the right wing of the party, Blairites, cunts to some of you did refuse to accept his election. Wrongly with hindsight but the flood of new left wing members he drew in alarmed many echoing the pounding they got under Thatcher in the eighties when last Labour went down that path so calling them cunts doesn't really help. They saw what they thought to be an existential threat form the hard left and kicked back. After all wasn't Jeremy Corbyn only meant to be taken left wing candidate : an MP that had always been on the outside of the PLP, never wishing to accept the official line if it deviated one iota from his personal beliefs. Looking at it objectively this man was always going to have a massive task in persuading his PLP to back him and really its no great surprise we are where are now,

Everyone needs to focus on beating the Tories, They are vulnerable in so many areas. Public services are falling apart, most people have shite jobs and Brexit will soon end up in a massive bunfight with our neigbours . Corbyn I am afraid is not the one to galvanise the public into kicking out the true cunts. The chance has gone for him to lead so we can all play the blame game or we can reluctantly accept the facts and have him step down, To me getting rid of this government is far more important than any injustices done to Corbyn

[Jairzinho]

I agree with most of the above with the exception being I don't accept the Tories are unbeatable.

On the issue of Corbyn then its true the right wing of the party, Blairites, cunts to some of you did refuse to accept his election. Wrongly with hindsight but the flood of new left wing members he drew in alarmed many echoing the pounding they got under Thatcher in the eighties when last Labour went down that path so calling them cunts doesn't really help. They saw what they thought to be an existential threat form the hard left and kicked back. After all wasn't Jeremy Corbyn only meant to be taken left wing candidate : an MP that had always been on the outside of the PLP, never wishing to accept the official line if it deviated one iota from his personal beliefs. Looking at it objectively this man was always going to have a massive task in persuading his PLP to back him and really its no great surprise we are where are now,

Everyone needs to focus on beating the Tories, They are vulnerable in so many areas. Public services are falling apart, most people have shite jobs and Brexit will soon end up in a massive bunfight with our neigbours . Corbyn I am afraid is not the one to galvanise the public into kicking out the true cunts. The chance has gone for him to lead so we can all play the blame game or we can reluctantly accept the facts and have him step down, To me getting rid of this government is far more important than any injustices done to Corbyn

 

I really don't think this was their reasoning at all, hence being perfectly fine with calling them cunts. Because they are cunts. 

 

 

 

Yeah, as is the case for everyone else. 

 

Honestly, stick fucking Yvette Cooper in charge and see how they get on at the next election.

[magicrat]

I really don't think this was their reasoning at all, hence being perfectly fine with calling them cunts. Because they are cunts. 

 

 

 

Yeah, as is the case for everyone else. 

 

Honestly, stick fucking Yvette Cooper in charge and see how they get on at the next election.

Decent hard working Labour MPs or cunts that is the question.and whether you are prepared to de-select every MP that doesn't fall in behind Corbyn.  Neither of these outcomes is going to happen so where does that leave you ?

Some compromises is likely to happen that sees Corbyn go as the sad truth is that Yvette Cooper would probably get more votes at the next election. Whether you personally can stomach that I don't know, As I said this country needs a new government desperately which is my main concern, 

[Jairzinho]

It doesnt matter who the leader is, it'll be a Tory govt in 2020.

 

Mong nation.

[Spy Bee]

I agree with most of the above with the exception being I don't accept the Tories are unbeatable.

On the issue of Corbyn then its true the right wing of the party, Blairites, cunts to some of you did refuse to accept his election. Wrongly with hindsight but the flood of new left wing members he drew in alarmed many echoing the pounding they got under Thatcher in the eighties when last Labour went down that path so calling them cunts doesn't really help. They saw what they thought to be an existential threat form the hard left and kicked back. After all wasn't Jeremy Corbyn only meant to be taken left wing candidate : an MP that had always been on the outside of the PLP, never wishing to accept the official line if it deviated one iota from his personal beliefs. Looking at it objectively this man was always going to have a massive task in persuading his PLP to back him and really its no great surprise we are where are now,

Everyone needs to focus on beating the Tories, They are vulnerable in so many areas. Public services are falling apart, most people have shite jobs and Brexit will soon end up in a massive bunfight with our neigbours . Corbyn I am afraid is not the one to galvanise the public into kicking out the true cunts. The chance has gone for him to lead so we can all play the blame game or we can reluctantly accept the facts and have him step down, To me getting rid of this government is far more important than any injustices done to Corbyn

 

This is such a misnomer. The Labour Party was actually infiltrated by Blairites which took them away from their tradional left wing, working class policies. How anybody can describe Corbyn as hard left is beyond me. Even Stephen Hawking when criticising Corbyn this week, actually said that this policies are sound.

 

There is no way that the party will be allowed to move back to it's traditional position, it is now trapped in Tory-lite-ville. Hence my assertion that the Labour Party is fucked.

 

The only was it becomes 'credible' again is by getting MSM backing, which is by embracing Blairite values once again. 

[magicrat]

It doesnt matter who the leader is, it'll be a Tory govt in 2020.

 

Mong nation.

 

I don't accept its a slam dunk in 2020.  Brexit will go badly and their Achilles heel are the collapse in social services

Whether you agree or not Corbyn is a massive reason why the Tories are doing so well, He can't change his style or be the combative politician that's needed. The public have completely bought into the image of a bumbling old lefty dreamer that couldn't run a second hand bookshop. There no changing that now.  The Tories are complacent and arrogant and it's getting worse by the day and quite frankly think they are infallible. There will be a backlash,   

[Cardie]

 

 

Had they gone through it with a fine tooth comb, they would have found it to be complete, accurate and fully compliant.

 

They went off half-cocked and started shouting that there was something missing. When it became obvious that they had fucked up... they ran with the narrative that Corbyn had fucked up.

 

Seriously - how is anyone supposed to preempt through-the-looking-glass bollocks like that?

Others have probably said it already but they didn't need to preempt the narrative they just needed to know the ins and outs of the return itself, anything that comes their way can then be debunked on the spot.

[Cardie]

 

 

Had they gone through it with a fine tooth comb, they would have found it to be complete, accurate and fully compliant.

 

They went off half-cocked and started shouting that there was something missing. When it became obvious that they had fucked up... they ran with the narrative that Corbyn had fucked up.

 

Seriously - how is anyone supposed to preempt through-the-looking-glass bollocks like that?

Others have probably said it already but they didn't need to preempt the narrative they just needed to know the ins and outs of the return itself, anything that comes their way can then be debunked on the spot.

[Section_31]

The problem is how do you run a working class party when the working class has been destroyed? There quite literally is no working class any more, certainly not an organised one. There's no movement there or community.

 

The only other ammo  you've got is liberal people, people who want a fairer society regardless of their own personal background. There are plenty of people like that, especially younger people, indeed many of these flocked to Momentum. 

 

One problem is that the Tories skillfully positioned themselves to actually appear Liberal, even though they weren't, by embracing headline grabbing stuff like gay marriage. I think that's a really skillful way of dividing your opposition. 

 

For example, I know loads of people who consider themselves liberal who are very 'right on' when it comes to LGBT rights, multiculturalism etc, but like to trot out the 'people on benefits have big tellies' line. These people can be neutralised by going about things the way Cameron and Blair did, you can pull them along with you without neccessarily dropping policies that pummel the truly desperately poor and disabled. 

 

When this goes tits up is when you don't package your right wingness correctly. Trump's regime for example, has caused its biggest outraged over immigration and LGBT rights, because the right on liberals can't abide it. Meanwhile, for decades, the country has actually made an industry out of putting poor people in prison and destroying whole inner cities in pursuit of globalisation (which said trendy liberals also embrace).

 

The only way Labour can win, in my view, is by becoming a liberal party and for the Tories to revert to their old ways of screwing absolutely fucking everyone. If they, for example, start doing stuff like bringing back Fox Hunting etc.

 

The working class will only be revived when working class jobs return to communities and their labour forces and estates mobilise. That ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Failing that, we need some kind of move towards proportional representation.  

[Hades]

It doesnt matter who the leader is, it'll be a Tory govt in 2020.

 

Mong nation.

 

Mongs are usually harmless people. It's the greedy, short-sighted authoritarian, tabloid-reading pricks that dig their own graves.

[magicrat]

This is such a misnomer. The Labour Party was actually infiltrated by Blairites which took them away from their tradional left wing, working class policies. How anybody can describe Corbyn as hard left is beyond me. Even Stephen Hawking when criticising Corbyn this week, actually said that this policies are sound.

 

There is no way that the party will be allowed to move back to it's traditional position, it is now trapped in Tory-lite-ville. Hence my assertion that the Labour Party is fucked.

 

The only was it becomes 'credible' again is by getting MSM backing, which is by embracing Blairite values once again. 

 

I can partly agree but politicians like Wilson and Callaghan were pretty canny guys and steered a centre left course, After they left then there was a an attempt to move to the left under Foot until Kinnock pulled it back . Blair got his opportunity after Smith's untimely death

 

Corbyn;s policies are not the real issue , Its him a and the image that is now too far ingrained in the public conciousness to make him electable, He also doesn't play the games in front of the cameras to batter the government at every turn, Whipping his MP's to waive through the A50 bill is bonkers in many peoples eyes,  The words  "we don't have an opposition at the moment" is heard everywhere you go..

 

Maybe it is Blairite values or nothing for Labour. Leave out the Iraq adventure and I kwow what I would prefer

[magicrat]

The problem is how do you run a working class party when the working class has been destroyed? There quite literally is no working class any more, certainly not an organised one. There's no movement there or community.

 

The only other ammo  you've got is liberal people, people who want a fairer society regardless of their own personal background. There are plenty of people like that, especially younger people, indeed many of these flocked to Momentum. 

 

One problem is that the Tories skillfully positioned themselves to actually appear Liberal, even though they weren't, by embracing headline grabbing stuff like gay marriage. I think that's a really skillful way of dividing your opposition. 

 

For example, I know loads of people who consider themselves liberal who are very 'right on' when it comes to LGBT rights, multiculturalism etc, but like to trot out the 'people on benefits have big tellies' line. These people can be neutralised by going about things the way Cameron and Blair did, you can pull them along with you without neccessarily dropping policies that pummel the truly desperately poor and disabled. 

 

When this goes tits up is when you don't package your right wingness correctly. Trump's regime for example, has caused its biggest outraged over immigration and LGBT rights, because the right on liberals can't abide it. Meanwhile, for decades, the country has actually made an industry out of putting poor people in prison and destroying whole inner cities in pursuit of globalisation (which said trendy liberals also embrace).

 

The only way Labour can win, in my view, is by becoming a liberal party and for the Tories to revert to their old ways of screwing absolutely fucking everyone. If they, for example, start doing stuff like bringing back Fox Hunting etc.

 

The working class will only be revived when working class jobs return to communities and their labour forces and estates mobilise. That ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Failing that, we need some kind of move towards proportional representation.  

 

Fully agree mate . It would fall far short of what some on here would like to happen but we can't go on with these cunts screwing us senseless and a prime minister howling with laughter at the prospect . It will be complacency ( and possible foxhunting !!) that kills them