Spurs

[TheHowieLama]

3 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

In the Premier League. I think his football at Wolves stunk. 

What about in Europe?

 

Dyche would kill to get to Europe.

 

Jimenez was bigged up on here as good for our style. He would be.

[3 Stacks]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

What about in Europe?

 

Dyche would kill to get to Europe.

Wolves' squad is a million times more talented than Burnley's. They also have more money and again, they have Mendes, which you underplayed.

[Barrington Womble]

2 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

In the Premier League. I think his football at Wolves stunk. 

really? i thought they were terrific till this season when they lost Jota and then Jimenez. they were fucking painful to watch this season though i will give you that. 

[aRdja]

2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

I'm not getting into the bamford stuff. 

 

I know you enjoy Brighton and Potter. Their lack of ability to score is firmly at the door of their manager imo. You want to see it otherwise and that's ok. Our points of view are different. All the points you have made I was aware of before you made them. They didn't alter my view then and you reiterating them hasn't now. I'm pretty sure my point of view that theyre still boring but in a whole new way and just as ineffective in the only aims of football, scoring goals and winning games, isn't going to alter your point of view because you think the lack of goals isn't on the manager and you clearly don't think they're boring. 

 

I'm really happy to accept in this situation the discussion can't go any further. We need to agree to disagree. 

But again expected goals metric tells us it isn’t. It’s telling us that they created better chances than they scored, I’m not here to change your point of view on Brighton, I’m trying to help you look past their position. You can only work with what you have. Potter bought a Championship level players and he did well with them, outplaying us twice in the process. I’m loathe to repeat myself but their position last year was false because if they scored the goals they should’ve if they had decent attackers they would’ve finished top half (or 5th if you believe expected points).

[TheHowieLama]

2 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Wolves' squad is a million times more talented than Burnley's. They also have more money and again, they have Mendes, which you underplayed.

There is nothing in that post about Mendes or money - how do you think they did in Europe?

[3 Stacks]

2 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

really? i thought they were terrific till this season when they lost Jota and then Jimenez. they were fucking painful to watch this season though i will give you that. 

It was strictly counter attack the whole time with current and future international quality players. Moutinho, Neves, Jota, Jimenez.

 

They'd give City and other big teams a hard time because of their style and then they couldn't beat Huddersfield.

[3 Stacks]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

There is nothing in that post about Mendes or money - how do you think they did in Europe?

They did fine. I still think the style was crap and it wasn't impressive. Is that ok?

[TheHowieLama]

Well - all opinions I guess.

Seems facts would point to both Espirito Santo and Bielsa being regarded in world football as a cut above the likes of Potter and Dyche.

[TheHowieLama]

3 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

They did fine. I still think the style was crap and it wasn't impressive. Is that ok?

Diego Simeone liked this

[3 Stacks]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

Well - all opinions I guess.

Seems facts would point to both Espirito Santo and Bielsa being regarded in world football as a cut above the likes of Potter and Dyche.

I didn't mention Bielsa at all.

[Barrington Womble]

2 minutes ago, aRdja said:

But again expected goals metric tells us it isn’t. It’s telling us that they created better chances than they scored, I’m not here to change your point of view on Brighton, I’m trying to help you look past their position. You can only work with what you have. Potter bought a Championship level players and he did well with them, outplaying us twice in the process. I’m loathe to repeat myself but their position last year was false because if they scored the goals they should’ve if they had decent attackers they would’ve finished top half (or 5th if you believed expected points).

just because teams create chances and the strikers miss them doesn't make them a great team. Potter both bought and selects the forwards. If they replaced them with a different forwards (let's say Origi through this summer for instance), well perhaps they would create less, because their 11 is different, players are contributing something different in the build up, so you might get someone who will have a better strike rate, but you may suffer due to less chances (see Glenn Murray). Unless you are looking over a short period of time, results are the only thing that matter. Potter has been manager for 2 league seasons and they average about a goal a game. His 2nd season was almost identical to his 1st - over two 38 games seasons he kicks around at 1.05 points and goals per game. This isn't luck - it's their par. After a full 12 months with his players, he was unable to get any more out of them in the 2nd season, they just did what they did 12 months earlier. Over his 2 seasons, he has managed just 6 points more than Hughton did over the previous 2 seasons, even though by it's very nature, the Hughton teams were far more championship teams than Potter's are. 

 

As I said earlier, he has nothing in his body of work at Brighton to suggest he should be manager of a club with a world top 10 budget. 

[TheHowieLama]

4 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

I didn't mention Bielsa at all.

Yea, it is a thread pal. Interwoven. Like the stingy back 5 led by our own Conor Coady that led Wolves into Europe (straight up from the Championship) for the first time in decades. Half a century maybe??

 

Anyways -- is Potter in the frame for Spurs d'ya think?

[3 Stacks]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Yea, it is a thread pal. Interwoven. Like the stingy back 5 led by our own Conor Coady that led Wolves into Europe (straight up from the Championship) for the first time in decades. Half a century maybe??

 

Anyways -- is Potter in the frame for Spurs d'ya think?

Man, you are good at creating an irrelevant word salad, I'll give you that. I don't get how Bielsa is in this conversation at all, as no one mentioned him previously and he's not linked to anybody, or Spurs.

 

No, I don't think Potter is in the conversation, rightly or wrongly.

[Barrington Womble]

12 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

It was strictly counter attack the whole time with current and future international quality players. Moutinho, Neves, Jota, Jimenez.

 

They'd give City and other big teams a hard time because of their style and then they couldn't beat Huddersfield.

that's ok, counter attacking can be very enjoyable to watch. to be honest i probably would not turn on wolves v huddersfield, so you may have some sort of a point there - i don't need to turn that on to know its going to be shit. but the idea counter attacking football is not a joy to watch at times is nonsense. In klopps time, Liverpool have been one of the most entertaining counter attacking teams on the planet, we have better players and a much bigger budget, so clearly we can do other things than counter attack. If wolves were capable of doing more than counter attacking, they would have been fighting us and city for the league, rather than getting into the uefa cup. 

[3 Stacks]

3 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

that's ok, counter attacking can be very enjoyable to watch. to be honest i probably would not turn on wolves v huddersfield, so you may have some sort of a point there - i don't need to turn that on to know its going to be shit. but the idea counter attacking football is not a joy to watch at times is nonsense. In klopps time, Liverpool have been one of the most entertaining counter attacking teams on the planet, we have better players and a much bigger budget, so clearly we can do other things than counter attack. If wolves were capable of doing more than counter attacking, they would have been fighting us and city for the league, rather than getting into the uefa cup. 

It's not that counter attack can't be good or exciting, it's that his brand of football was not particularly impressive particularly when you're getting fed players from a Super agent. He was going to go to Palace before he pulled out and now he's Spurs' 4th choice, I don't think the opinion of people in football about him is very high, even with his connections.

 

But anyway, we're going around in circles here. I've made my point.

[TheHowieLama]

7 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Man, you are good at creating an irrelevant word salad, I'll give you that. I don't get how Bielsa is in this conversation at all, as no one mentioned him previously and he's not linked to anybody, or Spurs.

 

No, I don't think Potter is in the conversation, rightly or wrongly.

First off - don't use other peoples material lad. Bad form.

 

 

You came into a thread that was discussing the achievements of newly promoted teams/managers. You replied to my post which was re: Nuno and Bielsa's quality vs that of Potter/Dyche/Howe. It is really only a page back if you want to follow along.

That said - you are of course wrong on Nuno and his standing currently. Which is why he is not talking to Palace.

[aRdja]

20 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

just because teams create chances and the strikers miss them doesn't make them a great team. Potter both bought and selects the forwards. If they replaced them with a different forwards (let's say Origi through this summer for instance), well perhaps they would create less, because their 11 is different, players are contributing something different in the build up, so you might get someone who will have a better strike rate, but you may suffer due to less chances (see Glenn Murray). Unless you are looking over a short period of time, results are the only thing that matter. Potter has been manager for 2 league seasons and they average about a goal a game. His 2nd season was almost identical to his 1st - over two 38 games seasons he kicks around at 1.05 points and goals per game. This isn't luck - it's their par. After a full 12 months with his players, he was unable to get any more out of them in the 2nd season, they just did what they did 12 months earlier. Over his 2 seasons, he has managed just 6 points more than Hughton did over the previous 2 seasons, even though by it's very nature, the Hughton teams were far more championship teams than Potter's are. 

 

As I said earlier, he has nothing in his body of work at Brighton to suggest he should be manager of a club with a world top 10 budget. 

I suppose what I’m challenging you is results are NOT the only thing that matter, you have to consider the context. Was Jurgen Klopp a poor manager at Mainz because he got them relegated? Was he a poor manager because he failed to bring them back up? If I was a Spurs fan I sure hope that Levy looks beyond the league table because he would miss out on the next Jurgen Klopp, a talented manager who does well with the limited resources he has. I’m happy for you to speculate on different permutations but expected points metric predicted the make up of the top 4 correctly and using the same metric Brighton was the fifth best club. If you want to just take a reductionist view and just look at the league table, then fine.. but chances are you’d miss the next Klopp, as when Dortmund picked him up he just resigned from Mainz having failed to gain promotion back to Bundesliga. A couple of levels below the level Potter is operating at.

[Barrington Womble]

Just now, 3 Stacks said:

It's not that counter attack can't be good or exciting, it's that his brand of football was not particularly impressive particularly when you're getting fed players from a Super agent. He was going to go to Palace before he pulled out and now he's Spurs' 4th choice, I don't think the opinion of people in football about him is very high, even with his connections.

 

But anyway, we're going around in circles here. I've made my point.

fair enough. i don't get too hung up on the mendes thing, because basically i don't really understand how it works or how much of an influence it is - or if all that happens is wolves money just flows to mendes after he got the going to get them up. i just watch the teams - wolves would seem an enjoyable team for me to watch in the games I chose to watch (I will admit, I wouldn't watch them with crap opposition). In terms of choices for Spurs ... well I don't really understand what they're doing either. I can understand why Nuno isn't at the top of the list for Spurs (or anyone else) - because of Mendes (as in they don't want him having such a big influence) every bit as much as Nuno's capabilities. While I don't think Spurs can quite attract the managers we can, just about every manager they've been linked to apart from Poch, I would be fucking fuming if they were linked to us I think, even though I don't mind Nuno and was quite shocked when he was interviewing at Palace. 

[3 Stacks]

6 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

First off - don't use other peoples material lad. Bad form.

 

 

You came into a thread that was discussing the achievements of newly promoted teams/managers. You replied to my post which was re: Nuno and Bielsa's quality vs that of Potter/Dyche/Howe. It is really only a page back if you want to follow along.

That said - you are of course wrong on Nuno and his standing currently. Which is why he is not talking to Palace.

Yeah, he's only the 4th choice at Spurs. Big time reputation.

 

And you do have a big word salad thing going on. Was the perfect description, sue me.

[Barrington Womble]

3 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I suppose what I’m challenging you is results are NOt the only thing that matter, you have to consider the context. Was Jurgen Klopp a poor manager at Mainz because he got them relegated? Was he a poor manager because he failed to bring them back up? If I was a Spurs fan I sure hope that Levy looks beyond the league table because he would miss out on the next Jurgen Klopp, a talented manager who does well with the limited resources he has. I’m happy for you to speculate on different permutations but expected points metric predicted the make up of the top 4 correctly and using the same metric Brighton was the fifth best club. If you want to just take a reductionist view and just look at the league table, then fine.. but chances are you’d miss the next Klopp, as when Dortmund picked him up he just resigned from Mainz having failed to gain a promotion back to Bundesliga. A couple of levels below the level Potter is operating at.

There is context. Here's mine. Brighton were fucking shit under Hughton. They sacked him because it wasn't good enough. Brighton are fucking shit now, virtually no improvement on what was there before. Potter should be glad he's keeping his job, because football is a results based business regardless of if you like that or not. It is the single most important thing in the game. The last lad got fired for the results Potter has served up for 2 years. Yet somehow we're supposed to think he should be getting one of the top jobs in world football? 

 

As I said before, expected points (whatever the fuck they are) might be some sort of indication on a 10 game run. Over two 38 games seasons, it just shows what utter shit "expected points" are. I'll tell you what I expect. If Potter stays at Brighton, they'll get 40-45 points next season because they will continue to be fucking shit and will not show any form of improvement as they haven't by matching almost identically what Hughton achieved. 

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, 3 Stacks said:

Yeah, he's only the 4th choice at Spurs. Big time reputation.

 

And you do have a big word salad thing going on. Was the perfect description, sue me.

Being 4th choice at Spurs is miles ahead of being at Burnley for a decade. 

 

It would, you have a similar grasp on most subjects.

[aRdja]

4 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Yeah, he's only the 4th choice at Spurs. Big time reputation.

 

And you do have a big word salad thing going on. Was the perfect description, sue me.

It takes serious mental gymnastics to argue that Nuno did better than Potter last season because Wolves finished with 4 points more than Brighton, given their respective squads.

[TheHowieLama]

5 minutes ago, aRdja said:

It takes serious mental gymnastics to argue that Nuno did better than Potter last season because Wolves finished with 4 points more than Brighton, given their respective squads.

Huh?

 

They sold their "future world class talent" - their top scorer for the last two seasons broke his head and they had a midfield of the SS Neves and a 35 year old.

 

Brighton are looking at selling a lad for 50 mil+.

[aRdja]

20 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

There is context. Here's mine. Brighton were fucking shit under Hughton. They sacked him because it wasn't good enough. Brighton are fucking shit now, virtually no improvement on what was there before. Potter should be glad he's keeping his job, because football is a results based business regardless of if you like that or not. It is the single most important thing in the game. The last lad got fired for the results Potter has served up for 2 years. Yet somehow we're supposed to think he should be getting one of the top jobs in world football? 

 

As I said before, expected points (whatever the fuck they are) might be some sort of indication on a 10 game run. Over two 38 games seasons, it just shows what utter shit "expected points" are. I'll tell you what I expect. If Potter stays at Brighton, they'll get 40-45 points next season because they will continue to be fucking shit and will not show any form of improvement as they haven't by matching almost identically what Hughton achieved. 

Brighton by all accounts achieved their objective. Graham Potter bought the players he thought that would help them stay in the premier league and he achieved that with ease. I don’t think you’re correct in your assessment of expected points, with all due respect. It predicted the make of the the top 4 correctly for one, and Brighton was the biggest outlier in terms of their position. It was widely reported at the time that the reason Hughton got fired was because they played awful football. Potter’s Brighton on the other hand play good football. They would’ve scored 16 more goals if they had half decent attack. Let’s face it Spurs aren’t going to bring in Klopp or Pep. They need to be creative in their selection process and try to identify the next Klopp. If Dortmund had you making the call back in the day, they would’ve given Klopp a miss, because your selection criteria lack nuance and context. Spurs can’t afford to do the same,

[3 Stacks]

17 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Being 4th choice at Spurs is miles ahead of being at Burnley for a decade. 

 

It would, you have a similar grasp on most subjects.

Hohohoho. Snap.