So, world war three

[Jairzinho]

No, but i've found it on youtube and i'm checking it out now. I've read Democracy Inc but that's about it, haven't read any of Hedges books.

 

Three hour interview. He's 92 at the time (died about three months ago sadly). 

 

Buy Death of a Liberal Class. Buy it now.

[Stu Monty]

They nationalised the means of production. Therefore, socialism. It worked about as well as it ever has. How more thorough does your analysis need to be?

I love the idea of someone who claims to have a real desire to test his views out thinking that the controlled experiment he places value on to test a system is how it works in an atmosphere of total hostility. An environment where all the power on the earth is set against it. That is how you derive a good assessment of that particular idea.

 

You might as well say that "in the real world" Lib Dem ideas were tested and failed miserably, and just remove all the context around it.

 

It's just lazy, low fruit logic.

[Jairzinho]

I love the idea of someone who claims to have a real desire to test his views out thinking that the controlled experiment he places value on to test a system is how it works in an atmosphere of total hostility. An environment where all the power on the earth is set against it. That is how you derive a good assessment of that particular idea.

 

You might as well say that "in the real world" Lib Dem ideas were tested and failed miserably, and just remove all the context around it.

 

It's just lazy, low fruit logic.

 

Stu, do you think Stronts actually believes what he posted?

[KopOut]

Chances of success and/or support, what they're fighting against, etc. I just don't think it's the same, frankly.

 

 

 

Essentially though it's almost impossible to analyse politics in Latin America since the second war because of the influence of the US. That doesn't mean everything is their fault or that everything that happened definitely wouldn't have done so, but they've had an enormous poisonous, insidious influence on the region. Some of the stuff to come out wikileaks is almost surreal.

 

The chances are that you'd actually get far more moderate social democracies in South America if left to their own devices for a few decades. The extremes are a reaction to each other.

It's the propping up of social systems by government that has bankrupted nations. Taxation cannot possibly pay for welfare ontop of everything else, so, governments borrow more and more.

 

Obama is a prime example. In 2 terms he's doubled the US public debt. All for hand outs, failing to kick start the economy.

 

Sure, the burden of tax falls on too few people, but the deeper jnderlying problem, is that we are all slaves to central banking and bonds.

 

So yhere you go - slavery DOESN'T work.

[KopOut]

In a capitalist system the banks would have collapsed. What we are experiencing is not capitalism.

Spot on.

[Rico1304]

Kop out, there's a BBC programme on now about a couple of brothers preparing like you. Might be on iplayer - Ben Fogle is the presenter.

 

Only disturbing bit is why twin brothers living alone in a Utah valley would take daily dose of an aphrodisiac.

[Chairman Meow]

Only disturbing bit is why twin brothers living alone in a Utah valley would take daily dose of an aphrodisiac.

Bit rich coming from Louie Spences best "friend".

[Strontium]

I love the idea of someone who claims to have a real desire to test his views out thinking that the controlled experiment he places value on to test a system is how it works in an atmosphere of total hostility. An environment where all the power on the earth is set against it. That is how you derive a good assessment of that particular idea.

 

Are you claiming that real world conditions are irrelevant where the merit or otherwise of an idea is concerned?

 

I would also question this idea that Venezuela, and the other 358 attempts at socialism, all failed because the evil capitalists wouldn't allow it to succeed.

 

I would suggest that all attempts to undermine the liberty of the individual are doomed to failure, and history would appear to bear that out.

[Hades]

Are you claiming that real world conditions are irrelevant where the merit or otherwise of an idea is concerned?

 

I would also question this idea that Venezuela, and the other 358 attempts at socialism, all failed because the evil capitalists wouldn't allow it to succeed.

 

I would suggest that all attempts to undermine the liberty of the individual are doomed to failure, and history would appear to bear that out.

 

Stu has answered this fallacy. We've had two millenia of imperialism in the western world. You really think the transition will take less than a century? 

[Neil G]

No.

 

I'm sorry, I know that we're all left-leaning here, but I'm from South America and Venezuela's problems cannot possibly be laid entirely at the feet of the "evil capitalists" from the United States.

 

As much as some on here like to deny it, humanity has only ever come up with one economic system that comes even close to working in the real world, and it is capitalism. It is a very faulty system and has to be very carefully managed by the public, with checks on corporate power by the government, and that is where we have failed. But to look at those faults and to say that the solution is to move to communism or socialism is to ignore the great wealth of evidence of history.

 

Venezuela 15 years ago was struggling in many ways, it was far from a paradise but compared to what it is now it was miles better off. They needed to install the kinds of checks that I mentioned in the previous paragraph to ensure that the people benefited from their oil wealth, but at least they had freedom of the press and freedom of speech. Then came the Chavezistas and their corrupt petrostate version of socialism and the country went into a death spiral. They held off for an impressive amount of time due to oil prices propping up a wildly optimistic budget but collapse was inevitable as soon as oil prices went into decline. The wonderful health care system that is held up as an example is in hopeless state of disrepair, social services are all but defunct, and now they don't even have enough food to feed their people. All of this in a state whose oil reserves are estimated to be larger than those of Saudi Arabia.

 

What has happened in Venezuela is nothing short of a tragedy, and the main bad actors have not been the United States but Hugo Chavez and his successor. Not that there is any shortage of blame, the US and their meddling can take their own share as well, but it's certainly not the lion's share.

Negged this by accident NMI. Bad straw man from you though, there are very few on here advocating outright socialism, as in complete public ownership of the economy.

[Rico1304]

Bit rich coming from Louie Spences best "friend".

True, but brothers?

[Ne Moe Imya]

Negged this by accident NMI. Bad straw man from you though, there are very few on here advocating outright socialism, as in complete public ownership of the economy.

 

I don't think I ever claimed that anyone here advocated outright socialism.  In fact I'm certain I didn't.

 

My point was simply that socialism, if that's what you want to call what Venezuela did, failed on its own merits.  It didn't fail because capitalists from America put pressure on Venezuela or undermined the socialist government or any of that.  It failed because 1)it was hopelessly corrupt and 2)it suffered from the problem socialism always suffers from, which is that people are essentially selfish and thus not motivated to work for the good of society.

 

I think most of us, with a couple of exceptions, on here would say that pure socialism (public ownership of the means of production) is not the answer to the problems we face in the world today.  Rather, what is needed is more control and checks on corporate power, and increased transparency in government affairs to prevent that corporate power's insidious growth.

 

I was merely responding to the claim that Venezuela's economy failed (and make no mistake, it has completely failed) because of actions from the West, specifically the US.  Which is utter crap.

[Section_31]

The issue when trying to judge a left wing country is that it never exists in a fair world. As soon as it breaks with the programme all the machinery of the planet is aligned against it, from the soft power like CNN calling your leader a smackhead who eats children, to sanctions or a blockade. In fact I can't think of a left wing country that's ever been left entirely to its own devices.

 

Fuck, it's not even about being left wing, it's about going against the status quo. Look what happened to Greece. Phase one was character assassination 'Greeks retire at 26 and are generally lazy bastards', phase two was causing panic with closed banks and global catastrophe style news reporting.

 

Jesus could come down with a replicator that produced unlimited food and water and fuel and turn Britain into a utopian paradise and within minutes his face would be plastered all over the front page of the S*n with 'randy Jesus's Mary Magdalene shame', next thing the IMF would be calling his fiscal policy 'highly dangerous' and Obama would be lamenting the loss of the special relationship.

[mattyq]

Was in Venezuela when Chavez first got elected

Have to say I didn't really notice it as I was busy enjoying the country's, err, charms, shall we say

[Jairzinho]

I was merely responding to the claim that Venezuela's economy failed (and make no mistake, it has completely failed) because of actions from the West, specifically the US. Which is utter crap.

Do you believe the US has had no influence on politics and economics in Venezuela?

[Jose Jones]

Obviously the US has, but I think both the "blame the US" and the "blame socialism" schools of thought are both rather simplistic (although obviously I am simplifying what the arguments have been here, so bit hypocritical).

Venezuela has had some forms of state controls in its economy since the 50s, even the "right wing" governments had ex-communists in positions of economic influence.  It's least left wing governments have still been social democracies with state ownership of oil, various nationalisation and social development programmes and whatnot. 

There has been a stream of shonky economics, dodgy politics and tomfoolery that have fucked up what should be a really prosperous nation.  Outside interests have had a part to play in that, Spanish and others as well as American, but so has internal political fighting.

[Jose Jones]

He's Venezualan?

Precisely my point Dennis.

[Hades]

I don't think I ever claimed that anyone here advocated outright socialism.  In fact I'm certain I didn't.

 

My point was simply that socialism, if that's what you want to call what Venezuela did, failed on its own merits.  It didn't fail because capitalists from America put pressure on Venezuela or undermined the socialist government or any of that.  It failed because 1)it was hopelessly corrupt and 2)it suffered from the problem socialism always suffers from, which is that people are essentially selfish and thus not motivated to work for the good of society.

 

I think most of us, with a couple of exceptions, on here would say that pure socialism (public ownership of the means of production) is not the answer to the problems we face in the world today.  Rather, what is needed is more control and checks on corporate power, and increased transparency in government affairs to prevent that corporate power's insidious growth.

 

I was merely responding to the claim that Venezuela's economy failed (and make no mistake, it has completely failed) because of actions from the West, specifically the US.  Which is utter crap.

 

You've just given a great argument for communism. 

[TheHowieLama]

Who plans WW3 on a fuckin leap year?

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Who plans WW3 on a fuckin leap year?

 

Gives them an extra day for planning. 

[Ne Moe Imya]

Do you believe the US has had no influence on politics and economics in Venezuela?

 

No, I said they have their share of the blame to shoulder.

 

I just think that the influence that Chavez and Maduro have had on the politics and economics in Venezuela are much greater than the influence the US has had.

[dennis tooth]

Are you claiming that real world conditions are irrelevant where the merit or otherwise of an idea is concerned?

 

I would also question this idea that Venezuela, and the other 358 attempts at socialism, all failed because the evil capitalists wouldn't allow it to succeed.

 

I would suggest that all attempts to undermine the liberty of the individual are doomed to failure, and history would appear to bear that out.

 

Lib Dem Lib Dem, all its attempts to undermine the liberty of the individual, are doomed to failure. And histories bear, shits in the woods and yet you support a democratically rejected party, a bankrupt party who the freee market also rejects. You are a reject.

[Jose Jones]

suffered from the problem socialism always suffers from, which is that people are essentially selfish and thus not motivated to work for the good of society.

 

 

Completely disagree on this bit. People are generally happy to help their fellow man. Socialism has worked perfectly well, particularly the U.S. and UK and most western Europe in the 50s and 60s and in the scando countries right now.

 

Socialist governments tend to fail for the same reasons as capitalist ones, cronyism and political stupidity.

 

Communism tends not to work because it takes power from the many and concentrates it in the hands of the few which leads to the two outcomes above with greater certainty.

[dennis tooth]

No, I said they have their share of the blame to shoulder.

 

I just think that the influence that Chavez and Maduro have had on the politics and economics in Venezuela are much greater than the influence the US has had.

The politics perhaps, not the economics.

[Strontium]

You've just given a great argument for communism. 

 

A great argument for communism is that is completely incompatible with human nature? What?