So, world war three

[Jose Jones]

Not all of them staged a coup d'etat though.

Well Chavez obviously staged a coup himself. And I think you'd be kidding yourself if you thought his and Maduro's governments didn't indulge in shit to get power and weaken enemies at the expense of doing the best thing for the country.

[Jairzinho]

Well Chavez obviously staged a coup himself. And I think you'd be kidding yourself if you thought his and Maduro's governments didn't indulge in shit to get power and weaken enemies at the expense of doing the best thing for the country.

 

Yes, obviously.

 

It's not really comparable though, in my opinion.

[Ne Moe Imya]

No.

 

I'm sorry, I know that we're all left-leaning here, but I'm from South America and Venezuela's problems cannot possibly be laid entirely at the feet of the "evil capitalists" from the United States.

 

As much as some on here like to deny it, humanity has only ever come up with one economic system that comes even close to working in the real world, and it is capitalism.  It is a very faulty system and has to be very carefully managed by the public, with checks on corporate power by the government, and that is where we have failed.  But to look at those faults and to say that the solution is to move to communism or socialism is to ignore the great wealth of evidence of history.

 

Venezuela 15 years ago was struggling in many ways, it was far from a paradise but compared to what it is now it was miles better off.  They needed to install the kinds of checks that I mentioned in the previous paragraph to ensure that the people benefited from their oil wealth, but at least they had freedom of the press and freedom of speech.  Then came the Chavezistas and their corrupt petrostate version of socialism and the country went into a death spiral.  They held off for an impressive amount of time due to oil prices propping up a wildly optimistic budget but collapse was inevitable as soon as oil prices went into decline.  The wonderful health care system that is held up as an example is in hopeless state of disrepair, social services are all but defunct, and now they don't even have enough food to feed their people.  All of this in a state whose oil reserves are estimated to be larger than those of Saudi Arabia.

 

What has happened in Venezuela is nothing short of a tragedy, and the main bad actors have not been the United States but Hugo Chavez and his successor.  Not that there is any shortage of blame, the US and their meddling can take their own share as well, but it's certainly not the lion's share.

[Jairzinho]

No.

 

I'm sorry, I know that we're all left-leaning here, but I'm from South America and Venezuela's problems cannot possibly be laid entirely at the feet of the "evil capitalists" from the United States.

 

As much as some on here like to deny it, humanity has only ever come up with one economic system that comes even close to working in the real world, and it is capitalism.  It is a very faulty system and has to be very carefully managed by the public, with checks on corporate power by the government, and that is where we have failed.  But to look at those faults and to say that the solution is to move to communism or socialism is to ignore the great wealth of evidence of history.

 

Venezuela 15 years ago was struggling in many ways, it was far from a paradise but compared to what it is now it was miles better off.  They needed to install the kinds of checks that I mentioned in the previous paragraph to ensure that the people benefited from their oil wealth, but at least they had freedom of the press and freedom of speech.  Then came the Chavezistas and their corrupt petrostate version of socialism and the country went into a death spiral.  They held off for an impressive amount of time due to oil prices propping up a wildly optimistic budget but collapse was inevitable as soon as oil prices went into decline.  The wonderful health care system that is held up as an example is in hopeless state of disrepair, social services are all but defunct, and now they don't even have enough food to feed their people.  All of this in a state whose oil reserves are estimated to be larger than those of Saudi Arabia.

 

What has happened in Venezuela is nothing short of a tragedy, and the main bad actors have not been the United States but Hugo Chavez and his successor.  Not that there is any shortage of blame, the US and their meddling can take their own share as well, but it's certainly not the lion's share.

 

Thank fuck nobody has.

[Jose Jones]

Didn't the opposition get in at the last election? Be interesting to see what happens to Venezuela. Unfortunately I think the practice of capitalism is in a much less friendly position than it was 20 years or so ago. There won't be any real interest in helping the country out and setting an example of what a bit of a freer market can do. It'll be pillage for any profit possible.

[Stu Monty]

No.

 

I'm sorry, I know that we're all left-leaning here, but I'm from South America and Venezuela's problems cannot possibly be laid entirely at the feet of the "evil capitalists" from the United States.

 

As much as some on here like to deny it, humanity has only ever come up with one economic system that comes even close to working in the real world, and it is capitalism. It is a very faulty system and has to be very carefully managed by the public, with checks on corporate power by the government, and that is where we have failed. But to look at those faults and to say that the solution is to move to communism or socialism is to ignore the great wealth of evidence of history.

 

Venezuela 15 years ago was struggling in many ways, it was far from a paradise but compared to what it is now it was miles better off. They needed to install the kinds of checks that I mentioned in the previous paragraph to ensure that the people benefited from their oil wealth, but at least they had freedom of the press and freedom of speech. Then came the Chavezistas and their corrupt petrostate version of socialism and the country went into a death spiral. They held off for an impressive amount of time due to oil prices propping up a wildly optimistic budget but collapse was inevitable as soon as oil prices went into decline. The wonderful health care system that is held up as an example is in hopeless state of disrepair, social services are all but defunct, and now they don't even have enough food to feed their people. All of this in a state whose oil reserves are estimated to be larger than those of Saudi Arabia.

 

What has happened in Venezuela is nothing short of a tragedy, and the main bad actors have not been the United States but Hugo Chavez and his successor. Not that there is any shortage of blame, the US and their meddling can take their own share as well, but it's certainly not the lion's share.

Sorry, we're back to this idea that because path x was taken then not only is it the only path that could possibly have been taken but that it is also better than any other routes taken. It also ignores the possibility that route y might have you miles further down the path by now.

 

Tiny outbreaks of socialism in a world of aggressive, hostile neoliberalism are not "evidence" that the model doesn't work. A world that adopted socialism and had outbreaks of rampant Neoliberalism could be though. To compare properly.

 

And capitalism is not the only system to have worked in the real world. Feudalism did. Slavery did. And at the point that their successes were at their peak they too could have been held up as the pinnacle of thought on human systems.

[Jairzinho]

Also, it's corporatism that the US wants to install, not capitalism. They didn't organise a coup d'tat to free the local baker.

[Jose Jones]

I prefer the term financialism. Companies have been corrupted by the pursuit of short term wealth for those at the top in ways they weren't previously. Profits are hid from taxation by accountants and complex financial apparatus.

 

However it wasn't just the U.S. organising a coup to get rid of Chavez, there were plenty of local actors. And after all Chavez was pardoned and then popularly elected.

[Jairzinho]

I prefer the term financialism. Companies have been corrupted by the pursuit of short term wealth for those at the top in ways they weren't previously. Profits are hid from taxation by accountants and complex financial apparatus.

 

However it wasn't just the U.S. organising a coup to get rid of Chavez, there were plenty of local actors. And after all Chavez was pardoned and then popularly elected.

 

Do you think they'd have staged one without the US?

 

There are always local actors.

[Jose Jones]

Do you think they'd have staged one without the US?

 

There are always local actors.

Yeah, probably. Chavez staged a coup without the backing of others. What's the difference?

[Jairzinho]

Yeah, probably. Chavez staged a coup without the backing of others. What's the difference?

 

Chances of success and/or support, what they're fighting against, etc. I just don't think it's the same, frankly.

 

Essentially though it's almost impossible to analyse politics in Latin America since the second war because of the influence of the US. That doesn't mean everything is their fault or that everything that happened definitely wouldn't have done so, but they've had an enormous poisonous, insidious influence on the region. Some of the stuff to come out wikileaks is almost surreal.

 

The chances are that you'd actually get far more moderate social democracies in South America if left to their own devices for a few decades. The extremes are a reaction to each other. 

[Scott_M]

[Strontium]

Very interesting about Venezuela as I'm sure loads on here were holding them up to be a great socialist example - I'm sure they nationalised loads of industries. Could be wrong.

No, you're right. They're an excellent example of how proper socialism works in practice.

[Stu Monty]

No, you're right. They're an excellent example of how proper socialism works in practice.

Genuinely embarrassing stuff for anyone that claims to be a thorough or analytical thinker.

[Spy Bee]

In a capitalist system the banks would have collapsed. What we are experiencing is not capitalism.

[dennis tooth]

Yeah, probably. Chavez staged a coup without the backing of others. What's the difference?

He's Venezualan?

[dennis tooth]

In a capitalist system the banks would have collapsed. What we are experiencing is not capitalism.

Capitalism doesnt allow governments to bail out banks.

[dennis tooth]

car bombing in Ankara, Turkey, has killed at least 28 and wounded at least 61 and may be the excuse used by Turkey to send troops to Syria.

 

Prior to today's bombing, the situation in Syria had escalated to open talk of actual war between Turkey (and its ally, Saudi Arabia) and Russia! Yesterday afternoon, a CIA operative revealed on FOX NEWS CHANNEL that Saudi Arabia "has four nuclear bombs." It is widely believed that this revelation was made with the permission and at the instruction of Washington, and was designed to send a message to Russia, not to use tactical (battlefield) nuclear weapons if the Turks and Saudis send 350,000 ground troop to over-run Syria.

 

This morning (eastern US time) Turkish President Recept Erdogan described the situation this way: "Turkey has reached the brink of its patience." At the same time, an assessment by a think tank revealed "Russia has made the necessary preparations for war with Turkey."

 

While the mass media in the US and the West utterly failed to warn readers/viewers about the terrifying seriousness of the fighting situation in Syria, both Turkey and Russia are now at the brink of open, hot, warfare. The world is now at the point where even a mistake by one side or the other can unleash ferocious war.

 

Three days ago, Turkey began firing artillery shells into Syria. Syria told them to stop, Turkey refused. Russia, who is assisting Syria with its battle against Rebels and Terrorists, told Turkey to stop. Turkey said "no."

 

So yesterday, Russia and Turkey took the issue to the United Nations Security Council By a vote of 15 to 0, a unanimous UN Security Council resolution told Turkey to stop firing artillery into Syria.

 

When asked by media if Turkey would comply with the UN Security Council resolution,Turkey's permanent representative to the United Nations replied 'Turkey-related decision of the UNSC does not exist. '

 

For the rest of yesterday, Turkey and others who support ISIS Terrorists and Syrian Rebels, publicly called for the insertion of ground troops into Syria. Those calls were rebuked, denied or laughed-at. This was the case because now that it has been proven that Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been supplying ISIS Terrorists inside Syria, and aiding rebels in that country to overthrow its government, the world realizes that the only reason Turkey and Saudi Arabia want ground troops sent in, is because their rebel/terrorist pals in Syria are LOSING!

 

As of late last night, it seemd that all efforts by the Turks and Saudis to get ground troops into Syria, would fail. No one was being stupid about what's _really_) going on anymore. Then, quite conveniently and almost on cue . . . . at about 11:40 AM eastern US Time today . . .

 

 

 

"Terrorist" Car Bombing

 

A massive car bomb exploded in Turkey's Capitol, Ankara. Reports indicate over 28 people have been killed and more than 61 injured.

 

The target of the bombing was apparently two busloads of Turkish Army Troop-trainees.

 

Before there could even be an investigation, it took less than an hour for the rhetoric from Turkish officials to begin:

 

Turkish security official: Initial signs indicate Kurdistan Workers' Party insurgents were behind Ankara bomb targeting military vehicles--

 

 

Ahhhhh, the Kurds; who just so happen to be the people helping Syria and Russia fight ISIS Terrorists inside Syria. Gee, what a coincidence!

 

Of course, this cannot possibly be a "false flag" attack to trigger public outcry and provide the Turkish politicians with an excuse to send ground troops into Syria, can it?

 

According to local media reports, Turk President Erdogan, has convened an emergency Cabinet Meeting over this "attack." It is widely expected his decision will be Blame the Kurds, claim that Syria is helping the Kurds, and send ground troops into Syria.

 

If that takes place, those ground troops will be engaged by Russia forces inside Syria, who have repeatedly warned that "If foreign ground troops enter Syria without Damascus' permission, it will be a declaration of war."

 

Russia means what it says; a rarity in today's world.

 

Hence, if Turkish troops enter Syria, and are engaged by Russia, today or tomorrow, it will likely be the hot-start of World War 3 which may result in a whole slew of us getting killed.

 

. . . and the mass media of the west provides no information to its people to help them see that the whole thing is a "set-up" by terrorist supporting governments like Turkey and Saudi Arabia .

 

 

 

UPDATE: a mere 6 hours after the bombing, Turkish authorities stated: A #Syrian refugee "Salih Necar" carried out the attack in Ankara.

 

Turkish daily Sözcü alleges Ankara suicide bomber is not only Syrian, but ALSO is a member of PKK affiliated #YPG, the military group assisting Syria and Russia against ISIS and the Rebels!

 

NOTE: The convenience of this is really quite obvious; a Syrian, a member of the PKK affiliate, YPG, which is precisely the group that Turkey has been trying to launch ground troops against inside Syria! Oh, and get this - Turkish authorities say they identified this "bomber" by his fingerprints, since all Syrian refugees were fingerprinted upon entry into Turkey.

 

There's just one peculiar aspect to the fingerprint claim: The Turkish authorities claim the bomber whose fingerprints they claim to have . . . was DRIVING THE CAR BOMB WHEN IT DETONATED.

 

There wouldn't be any fingers left for them to get prints from! The whole notion is utterly absurd. Turkey appears to be lying for the express purpose of creating an excuse to send troops into Syria.

 

Is anyone out there dumb enough to actually believe this story by Turkey?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Turkey all types of nefarious type shit

[dennis tooth]

Turkish forces have escorted at least 2,000 militants back to Syria over the last week in a covert operation to reverse the loss of terrorist groups, sources say.

"We have been allowed to move everything from light weapons to heavy equipment mortars and missiles and our tanks," Abu Issa, a commander of the militant group Levant Front, which runs the border crossing of Bab al-Salam, told Reuters on Thursday.

The militants, then, headed into the embattled border town of A’zaz in Syria’s northern Aleppo Province, he added.

The route across Turkey has become the only path for militants to enter Aleppo, after the Syrian army recently captured the main lifeline into the militant-held territory.

Another militant source said the Turkish army had stepped up delivery of arms and heavy military hardware in the last two days to reinforce militants facing a major offensive by Syrian forces.

Syrian troops have come within 25 miles (40 kilometers) of the Turkish border for the first time in over two years.

On Thursday, the so-called Syrian Observatory for Human Rights confirmed that hundreds of militants had crossed from the Turkish territory into A’zaz under the supervision of Turkish authorities in the last few days.

Ankara has been targeting YPG positions in northern Syria over the last few days in an attempt to stop Kurdish forces from reaching the Syrian border with Turkey, while Syrian forces have been making steady gains.

On Thursday, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu announced that Turkish forces will continue to shell Kurdish positions on Syrian soil.

Turkey regards the YPG and its umbrella group the Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) as an ally of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which has been fighting for an autonomous Kurdish region inside Turkey since the 1980s.

The YPG, which controls nearly Syria’s entire northern border with Turkey, has been fighting against the Takfiri Daesh terrorist group.

Turkey has been among the main supporters of the militant groups fighting to topple the Syrian government, Press TV reported.

- See more at: http://en.alalam.ir/news/1790734#.dpuf

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Don't Turkey store and deploy nuclear weapons for the USA under the NATO nuclear weapons sharing scheme? Thank fuck they can't arm them without authorisation codes from the US.  

[Strontium]

Genuinely embarrassing stuff for anyone that claims to be a thorough or analytical thinker.

 

They nationalised the means of production. Therefore, socialism. It worked about as well as it ever has. How more thorough does your analysis need to be?

[Boss]

In a capitalist system the banks would have collapsed. What we are experiencing is not capitalism.

 

Our system is inverted totalitarianism, built under the illusion of democracy.

[Jairzinho]

Our system is inverted totalitarianism, built under the illusion of democracy.

 

Have you seen the Hedges interview with Wolin?

[dennis tooth]

Our system is inverted totalitarianism, built under the illusion of democracy.

Exactly, its a monarchy we pretend is democracy. At the very least.

[Boss]

Have you seen the Hedges interview with Wolin?

 

No, but i've found it on youtube and i'm checking it out now. I've read Democracy Inc but that's about it, haven't read any of Hedges books.