The Positively Atheist Thread

[Rico1304]

I'd wager that you are absolutely wrong.  I think that most people who are born into it reject it.

 

And you seem to have jumped on the bandwagon of interpreting "born again" as a person who runs around with placards and a tambourine.  "Born again" is a general term that SOME people use to describe people who have found faith in later life (most Christians, I would say).

 

I would have thought critical thought would be something atheists claim to be a key characteristic of their (so advanced) outlook.  You should be able to evaluate terms like 'born again" as a dismissive pejorative term as adopted by mainstream society, and be able to see beyond it.

 

It's so simplistic it's embarrassing.

Another genius. Yes, my view is simple, there's no evidence for God, therefore I'm out. That's the only thing all us atheists have in common,I hope you weren't lumping us all together...

 

For what it's worth my interpretation of born again is someone who's decided to get superstitious as they've got older - not a quality I'd be looking for.

[Rico1304]

Here's some more Pew stuff, just on Catholics though..

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/04/27/faith-in-flux3/

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Another genius. Yes, my view is simple, there's no evidence for God, therefore I'm out. That's the only thing all us atheists have in common,I hope you weren't lumping us all together...

 

For what it's worth my interpretation of born again is someone who's decided to get superstitious as they've got older - not a quality I'd be looking for.

This is so tedious and childish.  Get that fucking chip off your shoulder and act like an adult.

[razor]

Another one who's much, much more intelligent than me. Look, I get it.

 

Only the entire thing is bollocks, I'd wager most Christians are toddlers when they are first introduced (indoctrinated) into the church. So they are told a load of stories, as facts, many of the which are aimed at frightening them into conformity. Like heaven and hell.

 

The exception are the born again - but I think most people write them off as a bit crazy.

 

Another genius. Yes, my view is simple, there's no evidence for God, therefore I'm out. That's the only thing all us atheists have in common,I hope you weren't lumping us all together...

 

For what it's worth my interpretation of born again is someone who's decided to get superstitious as they've got older - not a quality I'd be looking for.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point.  Counts me out as "genius", maybe.

 

You were using language to mock people who find faith in later life.  That's the point I was making.

 

I just thought it was ironic that a person who sees themselves as progressive in their thinking should be so conformist.

 

I'm not sure I'm lumping all atheists together.  My experience, and one born out time and again on here, is that atheists see themselves as progressive and see people of faith as being incapable of critical thought - "sky wizard" etc etc.  If you haven't been aware of this, I would wager (as you seem keen on this) that you're in a minority.  Threads are littered with these comments. 

 

The conflation between belief and intelligence is not one I introduced.

 

Yours sincerely,

A Genius

[Rico1304]

This is so tedious and childish.  Get that fucking chip off your shoulder and act like an adult.

Each time I've said it it's been in response to someone being a smart arse 'so simplistic it's embarrassing' or 'see if you understand it a second time' so fuck you.

 

When did I claim to be progressive? Although loving the gays, women and not believing fairy tales is a lot more than some so I'll take it.

 

Are you Catholic razor?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/z3b6hyc

Some interesting stuff there.

 

I followed a link from that to this, which has also got some good food for thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rfhpr

[Stu Monty]

All this talk of eternal torture and cretins is what you are claiming, not me.

 

So, you've found logical inconsistencies in the way a lot of people practise their religion. Is that really surprising? If those inconsistencies really bother you, you need to take it up with them not with me. I'm an atheist so I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

No mate, it's your logic that I'm challenging, not theirs. You are the one claiming that they totally believe in eternal torture but then apparently aren't arsed about it in day to day life. 

 

It simply makes no sense unless you are a deeply stupid person. Wouldn't you agree that if I gave you a list of rules to live by or I will eternally burn you alive you might make that a pretty central list to how you live your life.

 

Hence, as I'm saying, they either don't really believe, or it's a central guiding force in their lives, or they are literally maniacs.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

No mate, it's your logic that I'm challenging, not theirs. You are the one claiming that they totally believe in eternal torture but then apparently aren't arsed about it in day to day life. 

 

It simply makes no sense unless you are a deeply stupid person. Wouldn't you agree that if I gave you a list of rules to live by or I will eternally burn you alive you might make that a pretty central list to how you live your life.

 

Hence, as I'm saying, they either don't really believe, or it's a central guiding force in their lives, or they are literally maniacs.

It really isn't my logic.  I'm not trying to apply any logic to other people's beliefs; I'm just making a very obvious observation about a very widespread phenomenon.  You're the one who is emphasising total belief and eternal torture, in order to demonstrate that they are either cretins or they lack belief.  You're arguing about how people should act if they truly believe.  I'm just pointing out how a lot of people do act and I'm not judging them for it.

 

I genuinely don't give a shite about what they do or don't believe.  Like I keep saying, if their inconsistency bothers you, take it up with them, not me.

 

What I will say is that the undoubted existence of these people that you consider to be cretins or non-believers means that the fact that 68% (or whatever it was) answered Yes to the question "Do you believe in Heaven" cannot be interpreted as meaning that 68% are religious zealots who devote their every waking hour to serving God.

[razor]

Each time I've said it it's been in response to someone being a smart arse 'so simplistic it's embarrassing' or 'see if you understand it a second time' so fuck you.

 

When did I claim to be progressive? Although loving the gays, women and not believing fairy tales is a lot more than some so I'll take it.

 

Are you Catholic razor?

 

No, I am not catholic.  I went to a secular state school, and was nominally "church of England".  I think lots of people who identify themselves as "Christian", see it as a simple classification (like answering a question on a form when you used to go to hospital of what faith you are) rather than a lifestyle choice.

 

I said "simplistic" as you were insulting in your language, dismissively calling people who come to faith crazy; it was lazy stereotyping.

[razor]

I am Church of England like Jesus.

 

[Rico1304]

It really isn't my logic. I'm not trying to apply any logic to other people's beliefs; I'm just making a very obvious observation about a very widespread phenomenon. You're the one who is emphasising total belief and eternal torture, in order to demonstrate that they are either cretins or they lack belief. You're arguing about how people should act if they truly believe. I'm just pointing out how a lot of people do act and I'm not judging them for it.

 

I genuinely don't give a shite about what they do or don't believe. Like I keep saying, if their inconsistency bothers you, take it up with them, not me.

 

What I will say is that the undoubted existence of these people that you consider to be cretins or non-believers means that the fact that 68% (or whatever it was) answered Yes to the question "Do you believe in Heaven" cannot be interpreted as meaning that 68% are religious zealots who devote their every waking hour to serving God.

Have a look at the data - over 50% go to bible study or similar once a week.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Have a look at the data - over 50% go to bible study or similar once a week.

That doesn't counter Razor's original point (which more closely matches my experience of every Christian - or Muslim - I've ever met).

 

"Yes, this "after I'm dead" bit is a tad misleading.  I would wager most Christians aren't thinking about the afterlife when they become Christians.  They are entering into a relationship with a living God there and then for what they see as a better life NOW.  This is my experience, anyway."

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I am Church of England like Jesus.

 

You blasphemious Scaarse git!

[Rico1304]

Your point seems to be that most people have 'lite-belief' that they believe in the spiritual side but not the bible or the rules (or the bad shit) that comes with the belief. That might be the case with the people you know but the evidence from all over the world, from all the religions is that it isn't the case. You continue to avoid the data from all religions from loads of surveys and the actions of the religiously motivated.

 

I wish you were right, the world would be a better place.

 

Once again I'd be fascinated to know what evidence would convince you if that available doesn't.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Your point seems to be that most people have 'lite-belief' that they believe in the spiritual side but not the bible or the rules (or the bad shit) that comes with the belief. That might be the case with the people you know but the evidence from all over the world, from all the religions is that it isn't the case. You continue to avoid the data from all religions from loads of surveys and the actions of the religiously motivated.

 

I wish you were right, the world would be a better place.

 

Once again I'd be fascinated to know what evidence would convince you if that available doesn't.

My point is that evidence that people answer a survey by saying "I go to Bible school" or "I believe in Heaven and Hell" is not evidence that the world is overrun with frothing loonies, ready to kill themselves and each other because they think that'll win them the Golden Ticket.  That's all.

 

There is also plenty of evidence from studies that go deeper than surveys which point towards the idea that people's actions tend to be motivated by complex influences.  Like I say, I view humans as a bit more sophisticated than barely-domesticated livestock, acting solely on threats of punishment and promises of rewards.  That suggests that even when people claim to be committing atrocities for one sole reason - whether it's a religious reason, or to defend their country's "indigenous" population from immigrants, or whatever - the atrocity per se is not evidence that there's something fundamentally and irredeemably wrong with the cause that the person is claiming to be acting in the name of.

 

There are billions of people who follow different religions.  Even within one specific denomination of one specific religion, you'll find individuals with radically different interpretations of how they should behave and radically different degrees of commitment to behaving that way.  Fortunately, I think the cunts are in the minority; that's why they make the news, because they're exceptional.

[Rico1304]

Yes, the range of influences is covered in the data. Read it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Yes, the range of influences is covered in the data. Read it.

I'll admit I've not clicked on all the links, but I've not seen anything that covers all the psychological, economic, political, societal, evolutionary, etc. factors that influence a person's decisions.  If you've got a link that does that, could you re-post it, please.

[Stu Monty]

It really isn't my logic.  I'm not trying to apply any logic to other people's beliefs; I'm just making a very obvious observation about a very widespread phenomenon.  You're the one who is emphasising total belief and eternal torture, in order to demonstrate that they are either cretins or they lack belief.  You're arguing about how people should act if they truly believe.  I'm just pointing out how a lot of people do act and I'm not judging them for it.

 

I genuinely don't give a shite about what they do or don't believe.  Like I keep saying, if their inconsistency bothers you, take it up with them, not me.

 

What I will say is that the undoubted existence of these people that you consider to be cretins or non-believers means that the fact that 68% (or whatever it was) answered Yes to the question "Do you believe in Heaven" cannot be interpreted as meaning that 68% are religious zealots who devote their every waking hour to serving God.

 

Well you apparently do mate because you're repeatedly being quite strident about the fact that behaving in a way that might help them avoid being eternally tortured or spend the rest of eternity in the greatest dream they could possibly imagine would make people domesticated animals.

 

I'd agree with the second point although I'd note that you have deliberately changed the argument to suit your needs (from guiding their lives day to day, to every waking hour).

 

Would you now agree that if someone genuinely believed in hell it would definitely guide their actions from day to day.

[razor]

You seem to have a narrow view of Christians, Stu.

 

When I picture the Christianity you conjure in your imagery, it seems to be that American evangelical one.  It may just be my reading, like, but that Christianity is not what I recognise in the people I know.

 

The Christians I know don't seem to think about the carrot/stick of heaven and hell, or if they do, they have a good way of hiding it.  It's certainly not a daily consideration.

 

As a matter of interest, how many Christians do you know / interact with / discuss faith with?

[Strontium]

Most Christians seem awfully reticent of letting us know what they actually believe. Funny, that.

[razor]

Most Christians seem awfully reticent of letting us know what they actually believe. Funny, that.

 

"Most", eh?  And these would be.....?

[Strontium]

Well, all the Christians on this forum for starters.

[Jose Jones]

I mostly probably agree with the AngryofTuebrook and razor view of things in that religious people are in general rather personal in what they believe, happy to pick up some bits not other bits, and don't really live every day worrying about heaven and hell and hoping Stu Monty burns for all eternity.  I also agree that is the way religion has always been, so arguing that is not the nature of religion is ignoring a boatload of evidence.

I also think that polls that might provide answers to what people say they believe don't really have that much meaning in this field as they have no way of showing how that belief manifests itself in behaviour.

 

However it is also probably the case that the majority of religious types brought up in the UK will be pretty well educated, have a smattering of scientific knowledge and have spent a lot of time around godless heathens.  Therefore their nature of belief will most likely be a lot more relaxed, fluid and forgiving as it were, than people brought up in more didactic religious cultures.  Hence the nice examples.  

I generally have a positive view of humanity like, and think people are pretty much the same everywhere - but I'm betting that a lot of religious folk around the world really do believe in the more interventionist godly stuff.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Well, all the Christians on this forum for starters.

If they are so reticent, how do you know what they really believe?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Well you apparently do mate because you're repeatedly being quite strident about the fact that behaving in a way that might help them avoid being eternally tortured or spend the rest of eternity in the greatest dream they could possibly imagine would make people domesticated animals.

 

I'd agree with the second point although I'd note that you have deliberately changed the argument to suit your needs (from guiding their lives day to day, to every waking hour).

 

Would you now agree that if someone genuinely believed in hell it would definitely guide their actions from day to day.

I don't care about other people's beliefs. I don't care about your insistence on drawing false conclusions from survey data and on ignoring observable facts.

 

For clarification, I have not changed any arguments; I only do that in the face of new evidence.

 

As for your final question, I've already said that if you think people's stated beliefs are inconsistent with their actions, you need to take it up with them, not me.