The Positively Atheist Thread

[Rico1304]

No, no I'm not aware. You've already proved you're a genius pal, no need to rub it in. Surprised you have time to waste on us.

Hades - your ignore function is fucked. AGAIN.

[Rico1304]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201503/is-atheism-just-another-religion

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201503/is-atheism-just-another-religion

What an unmitigated load of bollocks.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Yes, this "after I'm dead" bit is a tad misleading. I would wager most Christians aren't thinking about the afterlife when they become Christians. They are entering into a relationship with a living God there and then for what they see as a better life NOW. This is my experience, anyway.

Rico

Have another read of this. See if you understand it the second time round.

[Rico1304]

Rico

Have another read of this. See if you understand it the second time round.

Another one who's much, much more intelligent than me. Look, I get it.

 

Only the entire thing is bollocks, I'd wager most Christians are toddlers when they are first introduced (indoctrinated) into the church. So they are told a load of stories, as facts, many of the which are aimed at frightening them into conformity. Like heaven and hell.

 

The exception are the born again - but I think most people write them off as a bit crazy.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Stop being so defensive you prissy little bitch. Nobody is claiming to be more intelligent than you. I have never met you. You could be Stephen fucking Hawking for all I know. But you have to admit that polls which say people believe in Heaven or Hell do not address the issue of whether that is a major part of their day-to-day life. Both of us are guessing and making assumptions on that score.

[Rico1304]

Ha ha ha ha. Love it. Look at the condescending shit.

 

For a grown adult to admit they believe in heaven and hell I don't think it's a great leap of faith that the prospect of burning for an eternity has a bearing on their life. Wouldn't it effect you? If you KNEW that you'd spend eternity on fire, wouldn't you obey the rules?

[Jairzinho]

 

It is funny how usually it's only on the issue of religion that people seem to totally throw out the very idea of polling people to understand what they think. It might not be perfect but there's a reason why billions of pounds is spent on it: because it's very, very useful.

 

 

Not sure that's really true is it? And I don't think the amount of money spent on it is really an indicator of accuracy either. Useful, yes, not always for especially innocent aims.

 

Polling is extremely accurate on the whole and has shown as much over decades. Using the few polls where they get it wrong to discredit all the others is silly in my opinion.

 

You can have a look here at the US presidential elections going back decades to see how accurate they are.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9442/election-polls-accuracy-record-presidential-elections.aspx

 

I think polling voting preferences is quite different to polling opinions on things (in fact, as the huge differences between the two for politics show - Something like 27% of people support Green policies, for example. *voteforpolicies?*). Most people are also pretty fluid about their thoughts on...well...most stuff.

[Sugar Ape]

 

I think polling voting preferences is quite different to polling opinions on things (in fact, as the huge differences between the two for politics show - Something like 27% of people support Green policies, for example. *voteforpolicies?*). Most people are also pretty fluid about their thoughts on...well...most stuff.

Sure, but I'm not really sure how fluid people's opinion are on religious matters. If you believe homosexuality is a sin then I doubt you're flip flopping on the matter every day.

 

Could you change those opinions with education? Possibly. But that isn't going to happen in nations like Saudi Arabia.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Ha ha ha ha. Love it. Look at the condescending shit.

 

For a grown adult to admit they believe in heaven and hell I don't think it's a great leap of faith that the prospect of burning for an eternity has a bearing on their life. Wouldn't it effect you? If you KNEW that you'd spend eternity on fire, wouldn't you obey the rules?

Whereas, assuming that billions of people around the world are guided only by the fear of punishment and the promise of reward, like some barely-domesticated animal, is not in any way condescending, right?

 

Like I say, guesses and assumptions.  Mine are, at least, grounded in anecdotal evidence; not great evidence, but better than none at all.  I know plenty of people who, for example, take solace when someone dies in the thought that they've "gone to a better place" or "they're up there watching down on us".  The same people (even ones who regularly go to church) don't feel constrained by the church's view on, for example, sexual morality; they just choose to treat people decently because they're decent people.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

What an unmitigated load of bollocks.

Indeed.  

 

I'm quite happy to apply the term "militant" to any people "who do not shy away from expressing their disdain for [those who disagree with them] in a very public and at times strident manner".  The word fits.

[Stu Monty]

Whereas, assuming that billions of people around the world are guided only by the fear of punishment and the promise of reward, like some barely-domesticated animal, is not in any way condescending, right?

 

Like I say, guesses and assumptions.  Mine are, at least, grounded in anecdotal evidence; not great evidence, but better than none at all.  I know plenty of people who, for example, take solace when someone dies in the thought that they've "gone to a better place" or "they're up there watching down on us".  The same people (even ones who regularly go to church) don't feel constrained by the church's view on, for example, sexual morality; they just choose to treat people decently because they're decent people.

 

Sorry AoT, either they don't really believe in the idea of heaven and hell or it guides their life. 

 

I find it bizarre that you think people would genuinely believe that they will be tortured for eternity if they don't follow the rules but then not really think that was important. Equally so if they were going to the greatest place ever when they died FOR ETERNITY. If anyone is condescending to these people then surely it's you, saying that they are morons that aren't arsed about the prospect of eternal hellfire.

 

I think what your anecdotal evidence really signifies is that these people's belief in heaven and hell isn't that strong, so they don't think about it that much. No?

[Stu Monty]

Not sure that's really true is it? And I don't think the amount of money spent on it is really an indicator of accuracy either. Useful, yes, not always for especially innocent aims.

 

Look, I can't be arsed arguing about polling. It's usually informative and mostly a good indication of people's views if sampled properly. 

 

If you disagree then make sure that in the future you apply it to any poll we ever talk about on here, not just religion. I image I could go and find a post where you state popular support for something like nationalising railways. Let's not pick and choose when we think this sort of information is allowed to be referenced.

[dirk grout]

The God question is perfectly simple. There are only 3 options.

 

1. There is no God

2. There is a God but he's a cunt.

3. There is a God but he has no power.

[VladimirIlyich]

You seem to be getting being wrong by a couple of percent mixed up with being of almost no worth at all (which is what your anecdotal evidence is).

 

It is funny how usually it's only on the issue of religion that people seem to totally throw out the very idea of polling people to understand what they think. It might not be perfect but there's a reason why billions of pounds is spent on it: because it's very, very useful.

 

You can give away a 20% error margin on some of the issues and still be left with a majority of horrible responses (that's also if you're being generous and not wondering if the margin of error is actually taking responses in the wrong direction, not the right one).

I'd say the problem with polling Muslims,possibly Christian too,is that not only are their millions of them the world over but there are so many different branches and variations of the same religion. Are many other polls required to take in such vast numbers and 'variations on a theme?'

[VladimirIlyich]

The God question is perfectly simple. There are only 3 options.

 

1. There is no God

2. There is a God but he's a cunt.

3. There is a God but he has no power.

I'd say the question 'What is your interpretation of God?' is the most important of all.

 

It just seems to me the most fervent atheists keep referring,or hinting towards a cloud sitter but I dont think too many religious people believe that at all.

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Sorry AoT, either they don't really believe in the idea of heaven and hell or it guides their life. 

 

I find it bizarre that you think people would genuinely believe that they will be tortured for eternity if they don't follow the rules but then not really think that was important. Equally so if they were going to the greatest place ever when they died FOR ETERNITY. If anyone is condescending to these people then surely it's you, saying that they are morons that aren't arsed about the prospect of eternal hellfire.

 

I think what your anecdotal evidence really signifies is that these people's belief in heaven and hell isn't that strong, so they don't think about it that much. No?

I never said people who follow religions are morons - I leave that sort of insult to the militants - just that their behaviour is not necessarily logically consistent.  If you want to debate the issue with them, knock yourself out.  There are plenty of people around who claim belief in an afterlife but who choose not to follow every last detail of church or scriptural dogma.  Whether you think it's bizarre or not, these people exist.  

 

Personally, I'm never going to get into that sort of argument with anyone who lives their religion in a way that you (or anyone else) might consider inconsistent.  It's none of my business.

[Rico1304]

You don't think they believe it? Based on what?

 

If you ask them 68% of US citizens believe in a personal God who is concerned with them. So they may not see him as a bloke sitting on a cloud but it's someone who's watching them and judging them (based on the belief in heaven and hell).

[Stu Monty]

I never said people who follow religions are morons - I leave that sort of insult to the militants - just that their behaviour is not necessarily logically consistent. If you want to debate the issue with them, knock yourself out. There are plenty of people around who claim belief in an afterlife but who choose not to follow every last detail of church or scriptural dogma. Whether you think it's bizarre or not, these people exist.

 

Personally, I'm never going to get into that sort of argument with anyone who lives their religion in a way that you (or anyone else) might consider inconsistent. It's none of my business.

It's not about what is and isn't your business. You are claiming that people genuinely believe that they will be tortured for eternity but that the rules that lead to that don't impact upon their lives.

 

It's basic logic. If you do that you are clearly a fucking cretin. You are intimating these people are that stupid.

 

So, logically, they don't really believe in it or it does guide their day to day life. Hence why you have to use the word "claim".

[Sugar Ape]

If the Pope says it then it must be true. Everyone knows God will strike him down if he lies.

 

[Rico1304]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/z3b6hyc

[AngryOfTuebrook]

It's not about what is and isn't your business. You are claiming that people genuinely believe that they will be tortured for eternity but that the rules that lead to that don't impact upon their lives.

 

It's basic logic. If you do that you are clearly a fucking cretin. You are intimating these people are that stupid.

 

So, logically, they don't really believe in it or it does guide their day to day life. Hence why you have to use the word "claim".

All this talk of eternal torture and cretins is what you are claiming, not me.

 

So, you've found logical inconsistencies in the way a lot of people practise their religion. Is that really surprising? If those inconsistencies really bother you, you need to take it up with them not with me. I'm an atheist so I don't have a dog in this fight.

[skend04]

Now I get why all the angst*

 

http://hinduismnow.org/blog/2016/02/05/hindus-are-the-happiest-among-all-people-atheists-unhappiest-new-study/

 

*disclaimer: polls are obviously bollocks.

[razor]

Another one who's much, much more intelligent than me. Look, I get it.

 

Only the entire thing is bollocks, I'd wager most Christians are toddlers when they are first introduced (indoctrinated) into the church. So they are told a load of stories, as facts, many of the which are aimed at frightening them into conformity. Like heaven and hell.

 

The exception are the born again - but I think most people write them off as a bit crazy.

 

 

I'd wager that you are absolutely wrong.  I think that most people who are born into it reject it.

 

And you seem to have jumped on the bandwagon of interpreting "born again" as a person who runs around with placards and a tambourine.  "Born again" is a general term that SOME people use to describe people who have found faith in later life (most Christians, I would say).

 

I would have thought critical thought would be something atheists claim to be a key characteristic of their (so advanced) outlook.  You should be able to evaluate terms like 'born again" as a dismissive pejorative term as adopted by mainstream society, and be able to see beyond it.

 

It's so simplistic it's embarrassing.

[razor]

Back to the polls issue, because people believe in hell doesn't mean the only reason they claim to be Christian / practise Christianity etc etc (and obviously you know there may be a gap between people who classify themselves as Christian and Christianity) is because they fear hell?

 

Have I missed something, or is that your claim?