World War II

[Dougie Do'ins]

I was watching The World At War. The episode about the blitz and the Battle Of Britain. There was one small clip about some minor bomb damage to a Buckingham Palace out building and how the royal family were supposedly relieved as the people of the east end among others were getting a little fucked off at how the war seemed to have missed them. I'll never be convinced otherwise that it wasn't a staged event to ease the suspicions of the public.  

[Tj hooker]

I was watching The World At War. The episode about the blitz and the Battle Of Britain. There was one small clip about some minor bomb damage to a Buckingham Palace out building and how the royal family were supposedly relieved as the people of the east end among others were getting a little fucked off at how the war seemed to have missed them. I'll never be convinced otherwise that it wasn't a staged event to ease the suspicions of the public.

Watched the World at War many times including that episode & never picked up on that but would not be surprised if it was the case I mean Buck House is hardly on the same flight path as the East End of London

[Red_or_Dead]

The Mrs got this for Christmas:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blitzed-Drugs-Germany-Norman-Ohler/dp/0241256992

 

It's really good, the Nazis were all off their tits!

 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

On the softening up part its simple

 

They wanted the invasion destination as secret as possible. Had they bombed Normandy then all the rfforts to make it look like the invasion wasbin Belgium would have been for nothing. Also we had troops (airbourne) who parachuted in tbe night before to take out the German guns. Plus with the Germans not knowing invasion destination they couldn't risk bringing up the reserve Panzer units.

 

Why did they just swarm the beaches not matter the death total?,because it was the only way it would work

I remember seeing some old codger on the telly on the 60th anniversary of D-Day.  He said that his role, on the day, was to land on the beach first and destroy the tank traps.  

 

He must have had granite bollocks to turn up there with a handful of mates, a promise of back-up a few hours behind him and the German army in front of him all the way to Russia.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Honking jobbie. Im ex Navy and all that Senior Service stuff is a load of old shite. Ranks are equal and a naval petty Officer is the equivalent of a Sergeant. Thats it. The only thing the Navy pulls is slags. The army go and die in wars. Which suited me fine when I was balls deep in a 3 headed Plymouth mantra drinking buckfast through a straw. 

You're wrong.

 

The Navy is the Senior Service because a pack of ciggies said so.

 

[SasaS]

I remember seeing some old codger on the telly on the 60th anniversary of D-Day.  He said that his role, on the day, was to land on the beach first and destroy the tank traps.  

 

He must have had granite bollocks to turn up there with a handful of mates, a promise of back-up a few hours behind him and the German army in front of him all the way to Russia.

 

He was lucky that most of the German army was facing the other way. 

 

[M_B]

Just started reading a book called 'D Day Through German Eyes.' It specifically involves some of the German soldiers involved in the D-Day Landings in Normandy. Some interviews were conducted in 1944 and then afterwards in 1954.Only just started it and have read the first two Germans who were involved and it appears very interesting. Their are two things that stand out,and one is starly ironic really. Both former Soldiers commented on:1) Why the Allies didn't soften up the German beach front defences on the night before the invasion and 2) Why they simply sacrificed so many men when the Germans themselves probably wouldn't have sacrificed their troops in the same way. It seems these were specifically US troops as they commented on Omaha Beach,Juno,et al and the Sherman tanks and planes which were easily distinguishable.

Will get stuck in over the coming weeks and see what else is thrown up that stimulates debate.

 

All the beaches were targets of an aerial bombardment on the morning of D-day. However there was a lot of cloud and some were missed. Omaha in particular was missed completely.

 

Only Omaha proved to be a difficult landing and it was almost aborted. I'm not sure how the Germans could have done it differently.

[ZonkoVille77]

Red_or_Dead, on 09 Jan 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

 

The Mrs got this for Christmas:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blitzed-Drugs-Germany-Norman-Ohler/dp/0241256992

 

It's really good, the Nazis were all off their tits!

That looks very interesting I think I'll read that next.

[jimmycase]

Just started reading a book called 'D Day Through German Eyes.' It specifically involves some of the German soldiers involved in the D-Day Landings in Normandy. Some interviews were conducted in 1944 and then afterwards in 1954.Only just started it and have read the first two Germans who were involved and it appears very interesting. Their are two things that stand out,and one is starly ironic really. Both former Soldiers commented on:1) Why the Allies didn't soften up the German beach front defences on the night before the invasion and 2) Why they simply sacrificed so many men when the Germans themselves probably wouldn't have sacrificed their troops in the same way. It seems these were specifically US troops as they commented on Omaha Beach,Juno,et al and the Sherman tanks and planes which were easily distinguishable.

Will get stuck in over the coming weeks and see what else is thrown up that stimulates debate.

 

The Allies attack was called Operation Overlord (D Day) was supposed to be a surprise attack. There had been considerable deception and the like to lull the Germans into thinking landings would be elsewhere and on a different date.

 

Battering the shore defences the night before D Day would have given the game away.

 

Its debatable (although not to the poor saps who were cut down in their thousands) whether the Allies did 'sacrifice' so many. It was a massive attack involving over 150,000 men in the first wave.

 

Clearly some miltary planning went wrong. the floating tanks for instance were meant for calmer conditions and the swell on the day overcame almost all of them (I think only one 'floating tank' made it to the shore). Tides also contributed to many landing craft not reaching their intended target putting many men out of position or without support.

 

I think the book is based on a tv programme about D Day landings. clearly the German soldiers were not party to the Allies plan. Im not convinced by the claim the German High Command wouldnt have 'sacrificed' so many men in a role reversal.

[slimjim75]

Sorry I carnt post here but if you search on YouTube. World war 2 from space hopefully you should come across a discovery programme which I've never seen before and really enjoyed.

[VladimirIlyich]

On the softening up part its simple

 

They wanted the invasion destination as secret as possible. Had they bombed Normandy then all the rfforts to make it look like the invasion wasbin Belgium would have been for nothing. Also we had troops (airbourne) who parachuted in tbe night before to take out the German guns. Plus with the Germans not knowing invasion destination they couldn't risk bringing up the reserve Panzer units.

 

Why did they just swarm the beaches not matter the death total?,because it was the only way it would work

Just swarming the beaches and sacrificing so many men,and knowing it would happen,pretty much shows how little regard for life these military leaders have.

[VladimirIlyich]

The Allies attack was called Operation Overlord (D Day) was supposed to be a surprise attack. There had been considerable deception and the like to lull the Germans into thinking landings would be elsewhere and on a different date.

 

Battering the shore defences the night before D Day would have given the game away.

 

Its debatable (although not to the poor saps who were cut down in their thousands) whether the Allies did 'sacrifice' so many. It was a massive attack involving over 150,000 men in the first wave.

 

Clearly some miltary planning went wrong. the floating tanks for instance were meant for calmer conditions and the swell on the day overcame almost all of them (I think only one 'floating tank' made it to the shore). Tides also contributed to many landing craft not reaching their intended target putting many men out of position or without support.

 

I think the book is based on a tv programme about D Day landings. clearly the German soldiers were not party to the Allies plan. Im not convinced by the claim the German High Command wouldnt have 'sacrificed' so many men in a role reversal.

I disagree with this considering the time that it happened. I think you are correct if it had happened earlier in the campaign but not so much in 1944.

[Lee909]

Just swarming the beaches and sacrificing so many men,and knowing it would happen,pretty much shows how little regard for life these military leaders have.

What choice did they have?

If you are fighting an entrenched enemy the general thought is you need the numbers 3:1 in your favour.

Its horrible by allied soldiers being led to tbe slaughter won the war,especially on tbe Eastern Front

[bigbak]

What choice did they have?

If you are fighting an entrenched enemy the general thought is you need the numbers 3:1 in your favour.

Its horrible by allied soldiers being led to tbe slaughter won the war,especially on tbe Eastern Front

 

Apparently they had an atom bomb coming.

 

I would imagine they had to do it earlier due to the German technological advances threatening to turn the tide again.

[Lee909]

The bomb wasnt ready for around year after the D-Day. The actual war in Europe was done by the time they tested the bomb.

 

The advances in technology for the Germans doesn't hold up. You can have all tbe advances in tanks (they were limited) and jets you want when you done have the access to the oil you need to run them.

 

The later German tanks were rushed and not sound. The Tiger 2 vastly overrates as was the Maus,Ferdinand amd Sturmtiger.

All were gas guzzlers and unreliable. The best tank of the war was the Soviet T34-85.

 

The allies had to invade Europe to help take the pressure of the Soviets the best place was northern France. They made and leaked info of an invasion in Belgium and Operation Mincemeat had the invasion in Southern France if my memory is right.

[SasaS]

The allies had to invade Europe to help take the pressure of the Soviets the best place was northern France. They made and leaked info of an invasion in Belgium and Operation Mincemeat had the invasion in Southern France if my memory is right.

 

The Allies had to invade to prevent Soviet Union defeating Germany on its own and taking over all of Europe, not just Eastern and Central. If they wanted to take the pressure off the Soviets, they would have done it much sooner. Soviet arms production matched Germany's in 1943 and with its upward trend, the rest was just numbers, once you win in factories, outcome in the field is inevitable.

 

[M_B]

Operation Mincemeat was Sicily.

 

 

I disagree with this considering the time that it happened. I think you are correct if it had happened earlier in the campaign but not so much in 1944.

 

Is a fair point. Hitler was happy enough to write off the 6th Army.

 

The later German tanks were rushed and not sound. The Tiger 2 vastly overrates as was the Maus,Ferdinand amd Sturmtiger.

 

 Was a Maus ever produced? I never knew that.

[Lee909]

Operation Mincemeat was Sicily.

 

 

 

Is a fair point. Hitler was happy enough to write off the 6th Army.

 

 

Was a Maus ever produced? I never knew that.

It was still being designed. Two hulls were made but not finished. It was a flawed concept anyway. Far too big and heavy. The soviets have one in the tank museum just outside of Moscow

[M_B]

The Allies had to invade to prevent Soviet Union defeating Germany on its own and taking over all of Europe, not just Eastern and Central. If they wanted to take the pressure off the Soviets, they would have done it much sooner. Soviet arms production matched Germany's in 1943 and with its upward trend, the rest was just numbers, once you win in factories, outcome in the field is inevitable.

 

(Interesting thread this one)

 

hmm I am inclined to disagree about the timing of the invasion. They couldn't have invaded in 43 on the scale they did in 44 and June was about as early as it could have been in 44. They originally planned for May but bad weather caused the delay.

 

The statement about factories and outcomes is too simplistic. There are many reasons why the Red Army won on the Eastern Front - it wasn't simply that they outproduced Germany (although obviously it helped). Doctrine, Lend-Lease, Poor German High Command, Ultra, the Weather (in 41), divided forces, length of the front, German supply lines........ their victory was achieved through a combination of influences.

 

Did we invade to prevent Soviet Russia taking the whole of Western Europe? Again its too simplistic to answer just yes or no. It was certainly a thought in the mind of the Allies, but it wasn't the most significant reason.

[Lee909]

The Allies had to invade to prevent Soviet Union defeating Germany on its own and taking over all of Europe, not just Eastern and Central. If they wanted to take the pressure off the Soviets, they would have done it much sooner. Soviet arms production matched Germany's in 1943 and with its upward trend, the rest was just numbers, once you win in factories, outcome in the field is inevitable.

Would have taken the Soviet far longer to fight back without D Day. They would have had to content with far more soldiers being moved to the eastern front. No doubt the war was won on Soviet blood though

[SasaS]

(Interesting thread this one)

 

hmm I am inclined to disagree about the timing of the invasion. They couldn't have invaded in 43 on the scale they did in 44 and June was about as early as it could have been in 44. They originally planned for May but bad weather caused the delay.

 

The statement about factories and outcomes is too simplistic. There are many reasons why the Red Army won on the Eastern Front - it wasn't simply that they outproduced Germany (although obviously it helped). Doctrine, Lend-Lease, Poor German High Command, Ultra, the Weather (in 41), divided forces, length of the front, German supply lines........ their victory was achieved through a combination of influences.

 

Did we invade to prevent Soviet Russia taking the whole of Western Europe? Again its too simplistic to answer just yes or no. It was certainly a thought in the mind of the Allies, but it wasn't the most significant reason.

 

It must have been one heck of a surprise for them then when all the countries Red Army liberated from the Germans later became Soviet Union satellites and all the industrial machinery and technology the Soviets found in the future Eastern Germany ended up in the USSR.

[mattyq]

It must have been one heck of a surprise for them then when all the countries Red Army liberated from the Germans later became Soviet Union satellites and all the industrial machinery and technology the Soviets found in the future Eastern Germany ended up in the USSR.

Churchill warned Roosevelt that this would happen but he was largely ignored

Partly because he wasn't very well trusted by sections of the US Command and especially their Naval Chief of Staff but mainly because it was very much obvious that by the latter stage of the war the UK's power was on the wane whilst the USSR was very much on the rise

[M_B]

It must have been one heck of a surprise for them then when all the countries Red Army liberated from the Germans later became Soviet Union satellites and all the industrial machinery and technology the Soviets found in the future Eastern Germany ended up in the USSR.

Well no it wasn't, but that wasn't the primary reason for D-Day as you suggest. The primary reason was to defeat Hitler.

 

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[Lee909]

Any if you guys that live down my way intetested in a load of books. There must be over 20 various books on WW2 here. Im not doing my wargaming so have no intetest in reading them. They'd need collected. Thought id ask before they go to the charity shop

 

No charge

[Lee909]

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