Roberto Firmino

[stringvest]

12 minutes ago, lebron said:

I'd say this is the fairest part of the criticism (and it's an important one with our current problems). All the other factors are connected to our teams systematic issues. Him winning the ball back being one of them. You can see he is trying, but when the other midfielders are too occupied with not conceding space, our group pressing (when Bobby is most likely to win the ball or tackle) suffers. Check back to a year or two. I guarantee you will find an example in every single game where Bobby applies pressure along with someone else and surprises the person with the ball. This year, most of his pressing is on his own. How many attackers will win the ball in that situation? Most defenders can't even do it. 

 

As for Ardja's "proper number 9", Salah's and Mane's goals would plummet, and we'd need to have a proper re-shaping of our attack. I guess the current version of Harry Kane would be the most likely to do the same job as Firmino. Those arguing Jota instead of Firmino on a permanent basis might also be surprised by the effect it will have on the team. I'd like him as an alternative, but more to relieve Salah and Mane than Firmino. Unless we change the way we play, which I don't want us to do (at least not when our CB's are back).

I don't think the other criticisms are unfair, and I don't really believe you can blame the issues with Firmino's play on other constraints in the team.  Wrt Jota, we have seen enough from him to see that he is going to finish a higher proportion of chances than Firmino, and that he can take a game by the scruff of the neck and make things happen - he can drive from deep centrally, or from wide positions, makes opponents nervous, takes them out of areas they feel comfortable, and makes them commit and make mistakes.  Getting Jota back is arguably more important than getting VVD back.

[coachpotato]

The whole shitshow that is this season isn’t down to Firmino or other single cause.

Around this point last season, City with Laporte out were 20 points behind us and had lost more games.

During last summers “break” they strengthened and integrated players to kick start the run they’re on now.

The situation is worse here in that we have fewer players than City to call on, but we’re not as far behind as they were and may not get those 20 points behind.

 I do believe we should now have players in their correct positions, no square pegs in round holes, because it has rarely if ever worked before and isn’t working now.

As it stands, we have little more to lose by putting in Kabak and another CB, and playing our strongest midfield and forwards and taking what comes.

If it doesn’t work out, are we any worse off than now?

[LFC 6 Times]

57 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

The "proper #9 thing", I'm all for it if we can find someone who is dangerous in the box, as well as intelligent, technically gifted and unselfish enough to be able to link well with our other goal scorers, but that player's just hard to find. You're talking about a handful of players, or you're talking about finding someone raw who you think could do all that at some point. Andre Silva is having a great season at Frankfurt and he's in that mould. He could be one to watch.

 

But you can't really just drop Haaland, a predatory goal scorer, in the middle of Mané and Salah, two wingers who also want to shoot and score goals and just say "figure it out". Doesn't really work like that.

I’m inclined to disagree on this. Bobby has undoubtedly been a great player for us. When he’s on it there’s few better to watch. Those days are far too few and in and  far between these days. I think the idea that Mane and Salah’s performance and numbers are going to fall off a cliff if Bobby was replaced by a more traditional 9 is plainly wrong. It’s a dangerous narrative and very hard to quantify, you’re genuinely talking about 2 of the finest footballers to ever grace the premier league in Salah and Mane.

 

Im convinced if you were to put Haaland in with them in a front 3, they’d make it work in fact it would be fucking phenomenal. I’d think Haaland would occupy more defenders than Bobby is currently doing on the half way line in turn freeing up space for Mo & Sadio.

[Bobby Hundreds]

If we only had the budget for Haaland or Grealish, I'd take Grealish I think he'd be fucking dynamite in this side and under Klopp. He looks like a twat it puts people off but he is some player.

[3 Stacks]

23 minutes ago, LFC 6 Times said:

I’m inclined to disagree on this. Bobby has undoubtedly been a great player for us. When he’s on it there’s few better to watch. Those days are far too few and in and  far between these days. I think the idea that Mane and Salah’s performance and numbers are going to fall off a cliff if Bobby was replaced by a more traditional 9 is plainly wrong. It’s a dangerous narrative and very hard to quantify, you’re genuinely talking about 2 of the finest footballers to ever grace the premier league in Salah and Mane.

 

Im convinced if you were to put Haaland in with them in a front 3, they’d make it work in fact it would be fucking phenomenal. I’d think Haaland would occupy more defenders than Bobby is currently doing on the half way line in turn freeing up space for Mo & Sadio.

I think if you look at the best front 3's of the last decade, the likes of Neymar - Suarez - Messi and Ronaldo - Benzema - Bale, the success is obviously built on the class of all three players, but even moreso on the link up, technical ability of the players and positioning. Benzema and Suarez are immensely smart players. Haaland for as good as he is, is a bull in a china shop and the attack is built around feeding him chances.

 

Maybe he will develop a further side of his game at some point, but right now, I just don't think you're maximizing Mane, Salah and Haaland if you put them together. Why is that a dangerous narrative? I think if it was easy to find a player to put next to Mane and Salah, we'd have bought another. Jota to me is a supplement to Mane and Salah, but he's not really a compliment.

[LFC 6 Times]

8 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

I think if you look at the best front 3's of the last decade, the likes of Neymar - Suarez - Messi and Ronaldo - Benzema - Bale, the success is obviously built on the class of all three players, but even moreso on the link up, technical ability of the players and positioning. Benzema and Suarez are immensely smart players. Haaland for as good as he is, is a bull in a china shop and the attack is built around feeding him chances.

 

Maybe he will develop a further side of his game at some point, but right now, I just don't think you're maximizing Mane, Salah and Haaland if you put them together. Why is that a dangerous narrative? I think if it was easy to find a player to put next to Mane and Salah, we'd have bought another. Jota to me is a supplement to Mane and Salah, but he's not really a compliment.

I think Haaland’s general play is being severely underestimated. I think it’s lazy pigeonholing like many would have done with Harry Kane. But look at how revered his link up play is now. 
 

I think the narrative around Bobby being absent will guarantee a drop in Salah & Mane’s performance is dangerous because it overstates his influence and ascribes the performance as two of the best players to play for the club down to Bobby. I don’t think it’s fair on them. I think a front 3 of players of the Calibre of Mane, Haaland and Salah would be absolutely outrageous and would see us scoring a lot more than we currently are.

[3 Stacks]

9 minutes ago, LFC 6 Times said:

I think Haaland’s general play is being severely underestimated. I think it’s lazy pigeonholing like many would have done with Harry Kane. But look at how revered his link up play is now. 
 

I think the narrative around Bobby being absent will guarantee a drop in Salah & Mane’s performance is dangerous because it overstates his influence and ascribes the performance as two of the best players to play for the club down to Bobby. I don’t think it’s fair on them. I think a front 3 of players of the Calibre of Mane, Haaland and Salah would be absolutely outrageous and would see us scoring a lot more than we currently are.

I'm not saying Firmino is the reason for Salah and Mané's numbers and I'm not saying there's a decline if Firmino isn't there. I'm saying you have to find a player that is the right fit. If a 25 year old Benzema was available right now, I'd pay van Dijk money for him the second the summer window opens.

 

And Listen, I'm not an idiot. Haaland Is a great player. He'll score goals anywhere. But don't you think if you're going to pay whatever obscene fee he will go for, you'd want to have him playing with forwards who also aren't quite selfish and look to shoot on sight? And it's not lazy, he is that type of striker. Everything revolves around him. If at 25 years old he develops the intelligence and technical ability of a Harry Kane, then fair play, but that's not what he is right now.

 

[LFC 6 Times]

I think this a case that we’ll have to agree to disagree, I’ve seen something in Haaland that I think will be one of the best CFs to ever play the game. He just seems like an absolute guarantee to me, and there’s not many of them in football.

[3 Stacks]

It's a moot discussion cause we'd only sign Haaland with Mané or Salah money, so we'd never see those 3 together, but the point still stands.

 

Where it'd absolutely work is if you had those three and then a world class #10 behind them, then we'd win essentially every game.

[Barrington Womble]

5 hours ago, VERBAL DIARRHEA said:

The midfield definitely needs more creativity, Wijnaldum has no assists in two and a half seasons in the league, Henderson and Fabinho in that time have about ten between them. Thiago can improve on that but he is more about control although he has had decent assists at Bayern. Someone running from midfield with an eye for a pass and a goal would be nice, we all thought it would be Keita.

If thiago was getting plenty of assists at Munich, is there a way to see who benefited, I wonder if it was predominantly lewandowski as that might explain why he's not reproducing that here, because we don't have that type of striker? 

 

As for all the other lack of assists, that's all been true when we were winning all before us. What we need to figure is what's different about our play. It's like back to the Bobby thing, I don't think he's looked right since he was injured prior to the 19 CL final. But that and his lack of goals at anfield didn't stop us being a machine that pissed the league. I do think our lack of presence on set pieces is a big issue. It was a decent source of goals for us and could often be the goal that opened a tight game. I'm hoping these new lads are good in the air as it might help offensively too. 

[lebron]

On 10/02/2021 at 16:07, LFC 6 Times said:

I’m inclined to disagree on this. Bobby has undoubtedly been a great player for us. When he’s on it there’s few better to watch. Those days are far too few and in and  far between these days. I think the idea that Mane and Salah’s performance and numbers are going to fall off a cliff if Bobby was replaced by a more traditional 9 is plainly wrong. It’s a dangerous narrative and very hard to quantify, you’re genuinely talking about 2 of the finest footballers to ever grace the premier league in Salah and Mane.

 

Im convinced if you were to put Haaland in with them in a front 3, they’d make it work in fact it would be fucking phenomenal. I’d think Haaland would occupy more defenders than Bobby is currently doing on the half way line in turn freeing up space for Mo & Sadio.

It'd be a disaster. Have any of the posters hyping up Haaland actually seen him play? Both for Molde, Salzburg and Dortmund players are instructed to feed him, and his link-up play and first touch will make Firmino seem positively God-like. I'll copyright "White Lukaku", a dangerous striker for teams that rely on counter-attacks and crosses. He will definitely work well for a 4th-10th placed team in the PL. For a team with title aspirations he will be considered a flop, especially at the touted prices.

 

Watch him play a game against an opponent parked inside their own half (like we face most of the time), you'll see what I mean.

 

PS! If we were to revert to a Houllier-like (or even early Rafa-like) gameplan, I'd be all for signing him. Luckily we have the best and one of the most progressive managers in the world, so we won't have to!

[joe_fishfish]

I reckon Mane and Salah could adapt to having a player like Haaland in the middle, whether they'd would actually want to is another matter.

[lebron]

19 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

I reckon Mane and Salah could adapt to having a player like Haaland in the middle, whether they'd would actually want to is another matter.

They'd adapt by seeing their goals tally plummet, and would have to switch sides to be effective. I'd rather have;

Salah 25, Mane 15, Firmino 5 goals in the league than

Salah 10, Mane 5, Haaland 20 goals

and that's being generous to Haaland...

[LFC 6 Times]

You’re talking pure shite Lebron.

[3 Stacks]

Haaland is a great striker already, but to ignore his traits and what he's like as a player is just as foolish. There are teams and players he'd fit in with fantastically and others where it wouldn't be very smooth. He's not some plug and play striker anywhere, he has holes in his game and a specific style.

[lebron]

2 hours ago, LFC 6 Times said:

You’re talking pure shite Lebron.

Unless Molde is your favourite team in Norway (it's been mine since 1984 when I watched my first live game there), I'm pretty sure I've watched more of Haaland than you have. I'm not saying he's not a great striker, but you need to set up your team a specific way go get the most out of him, as his flaws (touch, hold-up play, interplay) are nearly as big as his assets (pace, movement in the box). This is something his agent and family are well aware of, and while Norwegian media are doing their best to create a dream match with his old coach in Manchester I think the main motivation for him to go there would be their attacking setup. Playing in a counterattacking team with a creative AM behind him would suit him the best. If teams start packing their own half against the Mancs he'll struggle (relative to the price tag) there too. If you watch German teams play against Dortmund now, they have started compacting their half defensively as well. I think his numbers will start to tail off now that more teams are (even more) aware of him

 

Our team shape and way of playing would not be a great match. He would probably score some than Firmino from crosses by Trent and Robbo, but he'd not not combine very effectively with Salah/Mane imo.

 

PS! I'm more than happy to be proven wrong would get us even more positive spin and coverage over here, and having "star players" will probably do us good on a commercial level as well.

[aRdja]

6 hours ago, lebron said:

Unless Molde is your favourite team in Norway (it's been mine since 1984 when I watched my first live game there), I'm pretty sure I've watched more of Haaland than you have. I'm not saying he's not a great striker, but you need to set up your team a specific way go get the most out of him, as his flaws (touch, hold-up play, interplay) are nearly as big as his assets (pace, movement in the box). This is something his agent and family are well aware of, and while Norwegian media are doing their best to create a dream match with his old coach in Manchester I think the main motivation for him to go there would be their attacking setup. Playing in a counterattacking team with a creative AM behind him would suit him the best. If teams start packing their own half against the Mancs he'll struggle (relative to the price tag) there too. If you watch German teams play against Dortmund now, they have started compacting their half defensively as well. I think his numbers will start to tail off now that more teams are (even more) aware of him

 

Our team shape and way of playing would not be a great match. He would probably score some than Firmino from crosses by Trent and Robbo, but he'd not not combine very effectively with Salah/Mane imo.

 

PS! I'm more than happy to be proven wrong would get us even more positive spin and coverage over here, and having "star players" will probably do us good on a commercial level as well.

It doesn’t have to be Haaland. Salah and Mane are both world class players. They’d be able to adapt to a different type of player. In fact Salah had a great season playing alongside a proper number 9 in Edin Dzeko; scoring 19 goals and making 15 assists. Dzeko scored close to 40 goals that season. I’d take that any day of the week. I think Patrick Bamford would be worth a gamble. He’s heading into his prime now, and he could leverage his contract situation. He’s a number 9 but is very good at dropping deep and linking up with wide players and the midfielders. From his interviews, he seems a good sort too. Down to earth type. His highlights from this season.

 

 

 

[cloggypop]

ARdja promotes proper number 9 more than Conor McGregor does 12.

[El Rojo]

Have we been linked with Patty Bam-Bam? @3 Stacks

[aRdja]

A great article on Bamford.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/feb/13/patrick-bamford-scholar-of-goals-finds-right-master-marcelo-bielsa-leeds-united

 

Patrick Bamford the scholar of goals finds right master in Marcelo Bielsa

In-form Leeds United striker has finally settled and is scoring regularly after a career spent on the move and battling misconceptions about his background

Patrick Bamford celebrates one of the 12 goals he has scored for Leeds in 22 top-tier games this season.Photograph: Simon Davies/ProSports/Shutterstock

Louise Taylor

Sat 13 Feb 2021 12.00 GMT

The message beneath Patrick Bamford’s Twitter avatar seems particularly heartfelt. “Grass isn’t always greener on the other side,” it declares. “It’s greener where you water it.” Sean Dyche, Alan Pardew, Alex Neil, Garry Monk and the other managers who underestimated the Leeds United striker’s talent cannot fail to appreciate the pointed subtext.

When Bamford registered the 100th professional goal of his career as Marcelo Bielsa’s side beat Crystal Palace last Monday those pundits who had declared he was not a Premier League centre forward were fully silenced. It was his 12th in 22 top-tier games this season and, considering Harry Kane has scored 13 and Jamie Vardy 11, emphasised precisely why the 27-year-old striker is now in contention for an England summons.

Why should it be left to players to tackle social media's failure? 

Max Rushden

Read more

This metamorphosis is widely, and correctly, credited to an amalgam of Bielsa’s coaching and Bamford’s suitability to the Argentinian’s default 4-1-4-1 system. Yet the rather more unlikely figure of Tony Pulis also played a vital part in the reinvention of a forward who had recorded only one goal in 27 Premier League appearances before the current campaign.

“I can’t speak highly enough of Tony,” says Bamford of a manager who sold him to Leeds from Middlesbrough for £7m in 2018. “Working under Tony helped me a lot, it changed the way I approached the game and made me realise I had to be a lot more aggressive.”

When Pulis succeeded Monk at Middlesbrough, Bamford had been sidelined at the Championship club. After five years on Chelsea’s books without making a single first-team appearance and experiencing strained relations with Pardew, Neil and Dyche during loan stints at Crystal Palace, Norwich and Burnley, his career seemed not so much slow burn as all but extinguished.

Pulis knew Bamford was an academically high-flying product of a private, rugby-playing school who rejected a football scholarship to study business at Harvard in order to turn professional for his local club, Nottingham Forest. But, crucially, he saw beyond the lazily inaccurate received wisdom about the forward being “posh and pampered” and his family “too wealthy”.

Above all, he recognised the potential of a two-footed forward blessed with exceptionally intelligent off-the-ball movement and a magnetic first touch capable of scoring some technically demanding goals. He noted Bamford appeared a little underpowered physically but, at 6ft 1in, proved highly proficient in the air and was quicker than he looked.

Patrick Bamford celebrates scoring for Middlesbrough in the Championship in the 2017-18 season. That summer Leeds signed him for £7m. Photograph: Andrew Varley/Varley Picture Agency/Shutterstock

Throw in a selfless ability to link play, work the channels and hold the ball up, he had, in Pulis’s words: “Everything a striker needs, including great strength of character. Patrick’s a very good lad but he had a privileged upbringing and got slaughtered for it, so he needed a thick skin.”

The dressing room banter really began after Chelsea snapped up the violin-playing linguist – Bamford speaks decent French – from Forest and dispatched him on a series of loans with varying success. He was happiest, and most prolific, at Middlesbrough, eventually returning for £6m in 2017 to work under Aitor Karanka. When Boro wererelegated from the Premier League, Karanka – now a friend – was sacked, Monk arrived and, in football’s vernacular, “didn’t fancy” Bamford.

By the time Pulis inherited him he had long been recast as a winger but wasted no time in explaining precisely why he should be playing up front – and proving it by scoring a hat-trick in his first game at centre-forward.

Monk’s successor was quietly impressed but previous managers had not always appreciated his opinions and habit of, politely, answering back. Dyche sniped about Bamford’s upbringing. “He told me I’d been born with a silver spoon in my mouth,” recalls the son of an architect and a beauty therapist whose punishment for poor schoolwork was missing football practice.

Refreshingly, Bielsa could not care less about players’ backgrounds but swiftly detected that his new signing had been unloved by too many for a little too long. 

When he returned to training after missing four early months of his first season at Leeds with damaged knee ligaments, Bamford scored an almost impossibly audacious volley in training. Tellingly, as the ball struck the back of the net the normally impassive Bielsa astonished everyone by raising his arms in celebration and running, rather stiffly, 40 yards to embrace the startled striker. It was the beginning of a relationship built on mutual trust that would eventually help return Premier League football to Elland Road.

“I think he’s seen something in me not many other coaches did,” says Bamford but, as Bielsa prepared to take his side to Arsenal on Sunday, he was typically reluctant to accept the compliment. “Bamford’s a complete mature professional,” said the Leeds manager. “What indicates that is the amount of attention he pays when he plays. It’s very difficult to take him by surprise because he’s so focused. He’s been like this since I met him.”

[3 Stacks]

2 minutes ago, El Rojo said:

Have we been linked with Patty Bam-Bam? @3 Stacks

I don't know, isn't that your job?

[Em City]

I was wondering how long it would take before aDdja would be advocating for us to sign Bamford.

 

To be honest, it took longer than expected.

[3 Stacks]

4 minutes ago, Em City said:

I was wondering how long it would take before aDdja would be advocating for us to sign Bamford.

 

To be honest, it took longer than expected.

It's by far not the dumbest suggestion he's ever given, tbf. Usually he'll point out a player on a 4 year contract that plays on a team with a diametrically opposed style of football to ours, so this is far more sensible.

[aRdja]

13 minutes ago, Em City said:

I was wondering how long it would take before aDdja would be advocating for us to sign Bamford.

 

To be honest, it took longer than expected.

Dave went there first IIRC.

[Elite]

These fleeting moments of brilliance from Bobby just aren't enough. He can go from controlling a ball dropped from an aeroplane to struggling to trap a pass travelling at 2mph within the same 5 minutes.